[Fidelista]

Originally Posted by Gibble

1. Business can't go back to taking advantage of it's workers like it did pre-union.
Unions were a tool and lobbied for not only themselves, but everyone and laws have been enacted that protect the rights of workers. If unions went away now, the laws would still exist. Child labour, unsafe workplaces, etc, would remain a thing of the past. You don't need to go to your union to complain...you call the labour board.

Labor board ????? . This just shows how little experience you have .
Labor boards are extremely limited in what they do ---- it varies from state to state -- and most deal with Union issues .
In FLA , go to the labor board with a problem of any kind -- good luck !
First thing they will ask is what Union . They are not interested in your problem .
Fact is , laws to protect employees are extremely limited -- Fed and State --some states slightly better than others .
If laws were passed , enforced , and someone would actually fight for a grieved employee , it might be different , but that poses many other problems .
As is is now , only Union issues , or high profile politically correct issues involving a group --get any attention .
The little guy ? --he is at mercy , screwed most of time . "Hire at will" which translates into no protection under law .
I have been involved with the Fed Labor board in Fla many times , and most people would not have the knowledge or ability to get any relief --even if they deserved it .
As far as the "moving up the food chain" -- if not for regulation , and Unions , the food chain would be limited , little place to move . Lousy conditions can spread in a industry, become a trend that affects nearly every hourly --wage earner --everyone . Simply fleeing is not the answer .
Some people will move up , some will work as I do more based on performance , but some people will labor on a production line producing all you use for a lifetime , what about them ?.
Not everybody is in same circumstance , and those who labor, work hard , are not beneath consideration, protection from abuse , or representation, should they seek it .
>f

[poochee]

Originally Posted by Fidelista

Labor board ????? . This just shows how little experience you have .
Labor boards are extremely limited in what they do ---- it varies from state to state -- and most deal with Union issues .
In FLA , go to the labor board with a problem of any kind -- good luck !
First thing they will ask is what Union . They are not interested in your problem .
Fact is , laws to protect employees are extremely limited -- Fed and State --some states slightly better than others .
If laws were passed , enforced , and someone would actually fight for a grieved employee , it might be different , but that poses many other problems .
As is is now , only Union issues , or high profile politically correct issues involving a group --get any attention .
The little guy ? --he is at mercy , screwed most of time . "Hire at will" which translates into no protection under law .
I have been involved with the Fed Labor board in Fla many times , and most people would not have the knowledge or ability to get any relief --even if they deserved it .
As far as the "moving up the food chain" -- if not for regulation , and Unions , the food chain would be limited , little place to move . Lousy conditions can spread in a industry, become a trend that affects nearly every hourly --wage earner --everyone . Simply fleeing is not the answer .
Some people will move up , some will work as I do more based on performance , but some people will labor on a production line producing all you use for a lifetime , what about them ?.
Not everybody is in same circumstance , and those who labor, work hard , are not beneath consideration, protection from abuse , or representation, should they seek it .
>f

I hate to think of what would happen to the little guy without unions to represent them.

[selectrick]

In 1985 I was a young college graduate of an industrial electronics program of the local community college and was hired as a control panel wireman for a small to medium sized company for approx. $10.00 per hour. After a few months I had proven myself to be a capable, competent wireman and had been promoted financially to a decent $12 to $13 per hour. Here's the rub. All the while working at this place, my fellow employees, one a former electrical engineering student from poland (didn't speak english well, made $8 per hour, for 2 years!) , another a chilean refugee (highly educated as well, taught me alot about the job at hand, $8 per hour,same disadvantage of not speaking the language well), a number of women who were long time employees ($8 per hour, some foreign, not speaking english well). I think you should begin to get the picture here. None of these people would ever open their mouths in objection at conditions because they were afraid to lose their jobs. This I saw as an obvious abuse of these people so I helped to unionize this shop. This in my mind was the most fertile situation in which to unionize.A perfect example of un scrupulous employers taking advantage of the weak and vulnerable. Say what you will but I enjoyed every moment of shoving it in by going around in the evening and getting these peoples trust and signing them up. Bottom line.....we got the union in and these people got better wages, they got dental and medical benefits for themselves and their children.....all in all....a victory for the little guy!! Cheers!

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by selectrick

I Bottom line.....we got the union in and these people got better wages, they got dental and medical benefits for themselves and their children.....all in all....a victory for the little guy!! Cheers!

Of course the two got fired to pay for your dental benefits. Good job!

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

Of course the two got fired to pay for your dental benefits. Good job!

This is non union.....I just heard one of those 'inside rumors' that Glaxo is in the works for laying off up to 50% of it research chemists ........supposedly setting up shop in....China. Same issue, though. Wages and benefits too expensive in the US.

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by Stoner

This is non union.....I just heard one of those 'inside rumors' that Glaxo is in the works for laying off up to 50% of it research chemists ........supposedly setting up shop in....China. Same issue, though. Wages and benefits too expensive in the US.

Tell them to move to Maryland.............they are begging and paying top dollar for chemists here.

You know any good IT/Windows Enterprise guys? My friend, the president of a subsidiary corporation of Lockheed-Martin, will pay a 100 grand for one, right now.

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

Tell them to move to Maryland.............they are begging and paying top dollar for chemists here.

......................

Pharma doesn't seem to be in the greatest of shape right now.
My sister is an associate director at Wyeth. Layoffs are in place to do in 5000 in research, and there is some attrition from early retirement ( )
Rumor has it some of the jobs are going to India.
Wyth can buy 3 PhDs in India for the same pay at the same level of expertize as one here.
She has seen several jobs in the 200K range disappear.
There hasn't been any official notification to the rest of the workforce of those in jobs of interest, leaving.
Their email accounts just don't work any more

[Gibble]

Originally Posted by selectrick

In 1985 I was a young college graduate of an industrial electronics program of the local community college and was hired as a control panel wireman for a small to medium sized company for approx. $10.00 per hour. After a few months I had proven myself to be a capable, competent wireman and had been promoted financially to a decent $12 to $13 per hour. Here's the rub. All the while working at this place, my fellow employees, one a former electrical engineering student from poland (didn't speak english well, made $8 per hour, for 2 years!) , another a chilean refugee (highly educated as well, taught me alot about the job at hand, $8 per hour,same disadvantage of not speaking the language well), a number of women who were long time employees ($8 per hour, some foreign, not speaking english well). I think you should begin to get the picture here. None of these people would ever open their mouths in objection at conditions because they were afraid to lose their jobs. This I saw as an obvious abuse of these people so I helped to unionize this shop. This in my mind was the most fertile situation in which to unionize.A perfect example of un scrupulous employers taking advantage of the weak and vulnerable. Say what you will but I enjoyed every moment of shoving it in by going around in the evening and getting these peoples trust and signing them up. Bottom line.....we got the union in and these people got better wages, they got dental and medical benefits for themselves and their children.....all in all....a victory for the little guy!! Cheers!

...and you feel unionizing was a better choice than each of them learning to speak the language better, and talking to their bosses for better wages? Seriously, a few dollar raise to a long term employee is much cheaper than hiring someone new.

I find it hysterical that people gripe about companies trying to get the most for there dollar, yet the employees do the exact same thing. The employer offers money for time. Why is your time worth more than their money? You expect a raise each year for the same amount of time...should they not expect you to be better at your job each year? More efficient? Unfortunately, that's often not the case. Employees get lazier, feel they have earned there position. They have put in enough time they can't be fired...so...can the owner choose not to pay you and you still do work? Of course not...hypocrites.

[selectrick]

Originally Posted by Gibble

...and you feel unionizing was a better choice than each of them learning to speak the language better, and talking to their bosses for better wages? Seriously, a few dollar raise to a long term employee is much cheaper than hiring someone new.

I find it hysterical that people gripe about companies trying to get the most for there dollar, yet the employees do the exact same thing. The employer offers money for time. Why is your time worth more than their money? You expect a raise each year for the same amount of time...should they not expect you to be better at your job each year? More efficient? Unfortunately, that's often not the case. Employees get lazier, feel they have earned there position. They have put in enough time they can't be fired...so...can the owner choose not to pay you and you still do work? Of course not...hypocrites.

By the way...learning the language did not improve their job performance.....the lack of it seemed to be reason for the employer to take avantage!

What imaginary world are you in that you think a union worker can't be fired? It happens every day. Have you ever heard of inflation?( Justifying raises each year or whenever)Employees who get lazier get fired! It is the 21st century not the 60's!................Also , i didn't say they were completely illiterate! You think a guy who worked for two years with an engineering degree for $8 an hour didn't ask for a raise? You would have to have been there to realize how ridiculous your argument is!

[LuckyStrike]

This thread has split into two different issues as I see it. Why unions get started, and what happens after they get started. I've said all that I have to say about why unions get started, and that was my focus. I will bow out of this thread for the rest.

[ekim68]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

Tell them to move to Maryland.............they are begging and paying top dollar for chemists here.

As an aside, I read about Toyota wanting to put a plant in Tenn. a couple of years ago and the state was promising all kinds of things to attract it.
They would give 5 to 10 years of tax relief, and rezone the land, etc. But, in the end, Toyota chose Canada because of health care costs in the U.S.

[ekim68]

Sorry LS, still an informative thread..

[selectrick]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

Of course the two got fired to pay for your dental benefits. Good job!

Wrong, I got fired for instigating the union action , which I could have fought but didn't because I felt the job was done and I moved on.

[LuckyStrike]

Originally Posted by ekim68

Sorry LS, still an informative thread..

No problem, I did not mean that I did not want the thread to continue, I actually enjoy watching a thread that I am involved in take off. I just meant that I don't have any clear opinions about the subject beyond my original focus. I see the point on both sides. All here have anecdotal experiences that reinforce their point of view. All views are right, and will be again, about some company, in some place, at some time in the past, present, and future. All are wrong, and will be again, about some company, in some place, at some time in the past, present, and future.

Anyway, Saturday I am off to spend a week on the current river to recharge my batteries.

[Wino]

Originally Posted by ekim68

As an aside, I read about Toyota wanting to put a plant in Tenn. a couple of years ago and the state was promising all kinds of things to attract it.
They would give 5 to 10 years of tax relief, and rezone the land, etc. But, in the end, Toyota chose Canada because of health care costs in the U.S.

Toyota produced their first Texas Tundra pickup here (San Antonio) in November last year after 2 years under construction. Their timing really sucked. The George Bush economy paid them back for Pearl Harbor. Last I heard they had about 90-120 days worth of inventory and discounting the gas eaters like crazy to get them off the shelf. They've also had several recalls from bad engines to drive train. I expect the plant to drastically cut back, if not close down, costing Toyota and it's suppliers millions of $$$.