[wacor]

Obama does not want a single payer system but a public option. Only his most devout followers could see that as anything but a systematic and planned end to private insurance.

If there is a similar thread to this then either merge or remove this one. But I think the talks of a public system not eventually eliminating private insurance for all but the wealthy flies in the face of reality. And then how long will the govt allow the wealthy to get superior insurance with no waiting before that is considered unfair and the private insurance basically eliminated.

As an employer I can guarantee that if there is a public plan and it is cheaper for my company I will drop the private insurance for my employees and give them the public plan while probably keeping the private plan as long as I can afford it. Although given the intense desire by the left to drive this issue on to the fast track to hell I suspect I will not be allowed to have that option as a business write off and have to pay it out of pocket.

Obama has not taken off the table taxing existing health care benefits. You can bet this means that they will tax these benefits to both get money to pay for the public plans and to further make it less desireable to have private plans.

As a side note I think health care should have been taxed all along as a benefit. It has long been a hidden freebe to those that recieved it. If one did not get it then they would have higher wages.

Another issue is how will a public care system impact part time and minimum wage workers and those jobs. You talk about a sticky wicket. If you think minimum wage increases could impact jobs you aint seen nothing yet if those jobs will get health care coverage under Obamacare.

What sickens me the most is this is being fast tracked. This will be one giant messed up affair. If they want to do this they should do what any prudent massive program typically does and do a pilot program for a couple of years. I would start with all govt employees. Mandate they go on Obamacare and see how it works out. My guess is there would be massive changes and it is far better to learn on a small scale rather than a massive scale.

[LANMaster]

It's going to be a real mess if Obama succeeds.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by wacor

Obama does not want a single payer system but a public option. Only his most devout followers could see that as anything but a systematic and planned end to private insurance.

maybe it's enough that the issue is being discussed....
pretty interesting -and long- vid at youtube about policy rescissions

it appears the public option is under consideration because it forces the private insurance business model to offer a product regardless of risk, without mandating that all americans have health insurance.

private insurers all agree that such a mandate would make such a product feasible, and that the current system make it completely unrealistic.

essentially it sounds like private insurers acknowledge the grey -and arbitrary- area that the committee was hammering on wrt rescissons, but when push comes to shove, they fall back on distancing themselves from "your" laws (the government's), and maintain the right to do business as they have been, challenging the government to enforce the laws that it has made....or change the system.

even while both sides agree that health insurance is really all about an individual's health.....'cept the insurance companies will only put that ahead of it's right to make a profit IF the government acts.

so.....there ya go

You talk about a sticky wicket.

you got that right

What sickens me the most is this is being fast tracked. This will be one giant messed up affair. If they want to do this they should do what any prudent massive program typically does and do a pilot program for a couple of years.

that, and take the insurance company at their word.....they claim to be willing to work with the feds to produce a private product
the stickiest of the wickets is the mandate that private insurers want that EVERYONE has to be insured.
how would that go over?

[LANMaster]

[Sarge]

President Obamas grandmother was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given less than nine months to live, the President said.

She fell and broke her hip,


"and the question was, does she get hip replacement surgery, even though she was fragile enough they were not sure how long she would last?"

Well does she get the new hip or not because President Obama never answered the question. Dont worry, Ill tell you the answer. No. She doesnt get the new hip because, basically, Shes going to die anyway so ......

"Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller." President Barack Obama

[jmosmith]

Originally Posted by Sarge

President Obamas grandmother was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given less than nine months to live, the President said.

She fell and broke her hip,


"and the question was, does she get hip replacement surgery, even though she was fragile enough they were not sure how long she would last?"

Well does she get the new hip or not because President Obama never answered the question. Dont worry, Ill tell you the answer. No. She doesnt get the new hip because, basically, Shes going to die anyway so ......

"Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller." President Barack Obama

A broken hip alone, is not a reason for hip replacement. <--- ergo, fallacy

Normal insurance would not pay such a surgury in such a case if it were needed, for many reasons, not the least being that increased risks, and the fact that recovery would take two months for an ohterwise healthy patient of advanced age,... 7 months left. <--- next fallacious implication

Like my friend is fond of saying, "anecdote" is NOT the plural of "data",...

If this is all so clearly "wrong", why is it necessary to attempt such unclear tactics to argue against it.

Turn Limbaugh off, turn your brain on.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by jmosmith

A broken hip alone, is not a reason for hip replacement. <--- ergo, fallacy

Normal insurance would not pay such a surgury in such a case if it were needed, for many reasons, not the least being that increased risks, and the fact that recovery would take two months for an ohterwise healthy patient of advanced age,... 7 months left. <--- next fallacious implication

Like my friend is fond of saying, "anecdote" is NOT the plural of "data",...

If this is all so clearly "wrong", why is it necessary to attempt such unclear tactics to argue against it.

Turn Limbaugh off, turn your brain on.

The point is not the hip, if you have questions about the hip, ask the President, He is the one that made the statement and He nor you answered the question.

The statement is very clear. If a person is terminally ill, the government will not pay for specialized procedures due to , the patient is going to die soon anyway. Is this not the point that Obama was making? If not please help me to turn my brain on and explain it to me because I would like to know.

And please tell me what are all of the "fallacies" that you are concluding to?

BTW, I dont listen to or endorse Limbaugh, or Hannity for that matter.

[wacor]

Forget the hip analogy. You know darn well the govt will have to limit things and micro manage in order to keep costs under control. That is the point.

How many people go to a clinic for general issues that have insurance? Well if Obamacare comes to fruiting and morphs into what it eventually has to then you are going to be faced with either long waits for a primary care physician or going to a clinic.

Primary care physicians are going to be over worked and there will not be enough of them. In the future young people are not going to choose that as their job as a result. So we will be faced with either going to clinics to get immediate help or waiting long hours or days to see the primary care doctor. This is not a guess but a reasonable assumption based on things I have heard in Britain and Canada.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by wacor

Well if Obamacare comes to fruiting and morphs into what it eventually has to then you are going to be faced with either long waits for a primary care physician or going to a clinic.

Primary care physicians are going to be over worked and there will not be enough of them. In the future young people are not going to choose that as their job as a result. So we will be faced with either going to clinics to get immediate help or waiting long hours or days to see the primary care doctor. This is not a guess but a reasonable assumption based on things I have heard in Britain and Canada.

My wife has to wait at least one month to go to a specialty clinic and we have to travel over 50 miles. Military medical care is a form of socialized medicine, it may be like this for everyone soon.



Well of course it wouldnt be like that if we were old and ready to pass, if that were the case we would just get pain killers and we can get those anywhere.

[wacor]

Originally Posted by Sarge

My wife has to wait at least one month to go to a specialty clinic and we have to travel over 50 miles. Military medical care is a form of socialized medicine, it may be like this for everyone soon.



Well of course it wouldnt be like that if we were old and ready to pass, if that were the case we would just get pain killers and we can get those anywhere.

Sarge I think though that part of the discussion no matter who does the insuring is going to have to include what degree of care we give elderly people or people that are terminal.

We have people living longer and longer and medicine continues to make advances. There are going to have to be tough decisions made and it is not so simple and in black and white.

Let me give you a personal example

In Sept 2006 my 90+ year old mother elected to have a knee replacement. She was the picture of health. She lived alone after my fathers death in 1999 and was totally self sufficient and drove a car.

This self sufficiency is what made her decide to get the knee replaced. She did not want to be a burden that relied on others. She could walk without a limp but used a cane and was told it was going to get much worse and it may not be too long before she would be stuck in a wheel chair.

Her heart doctor and primary care physician gave her the green light and she went thru the operation. I could drag this post out longer but within two weeks she died from COPD and Congestive Heart Failure after a successful operation. For two days all was well and then the you know what hit the fan.

There was all that time spent in either the hospital or rehab/nursing home. I never paid attention to the costs as my brother handled the estate but I would guess easily $150k+ was spent on this adventure.

I state the above not for sympathy. I state it to show it as an example of where maybe sometimes pain pills might have been a better option and where maybe an elective surgery is not advisable. As I said sometimes things are not just black and white. In addition in my mothers case we also could have artificially prolonged her life for hours or days by clinging on to a pipe dream that she might recover at who knows what additional expense.

[Sarge]

All is understood Wacor but at least she had a choice. If Obamacare goes through, will people still have a choice or will Obamacare make the decision for them.

[Wino]

I have no idea what 'Obamacare' will be like, but if it is any where near like Medicare and available to all, then I'm all for it. It will save everyone - individuals, corps, small business tons of money that can be spent elsewhere rather than end up in the coffers of an insurance company that cares not for anything but profit.

I currently pay $300 a month for Part B & D Medicare and a BCBS supplemental medical care program. This is $9,400/yr. LESS than I was paying 1.5 years ago to BCBS for less coverage before I qualified for Medicare. I'm also still paying SS & Medical taxes from my small business that are not included in the amounts previous. Only the gods know how much I would be paying BCBS now if I were still on my old plan, but I would guess another $5-6000 tacked on to the past $9400/yr.

In the past two months I have been to my GP doctor, a heart specialist, a pain specialist, a neurologist, have had CT scans, X-rays, sonograms. I have maybe waited 30 minutes max. for any procedures and maybe a day or two at most to see the specialist. I've not been refused any procedures my doctors recommended.

Last year I had one minor out patient procedure and one minor surgery with over night hospital stay, a colonoscopy, an MRI along with numerous X-rays, heart specialist, heart monitor and electro sonogram. I've yet to have any out of pocket expense beyond my monthly premiums of $300. It isn't free, just less expensive.

All this doom and gloom you guys speak of is pure speculation with no basis in fact. I'm all for anything for everyone that will reduce their cost of health care. If I'm saving $9400 or more a year, just think what a family could save with a similar plan, leaving them money to spend for other necessities. Think of the money a small business or a large corporation could save. My health care coverage is not as good as our congress gets, but it's better than nothing at all.

[Frank4d]

I think healthcare for all would be more affordable if there were more price controls on care, not insurance companies or the government limiting the care that is provided. Caps on lawsuits would help too.

My daughter recently had two oral surgeries, both in-office procedures thay were not covered by my worthless dental insurance. The first was a bone graft where the doctor cut a piece of bone from her lower jaw and grafted it into the roof of her mouth. That was $2400. Next she had a screw implanted for a crown. That surgery was $1900. These two surgeries took about four hours, and together cost me $4300... over $1,000 per hour! Most people could not afford this so they smile with a large gap between their teeth. I understand the doctor has to run his office, pay his staff, pay for his education, pay for malpractice insurance, etc. But $1,000 per hour???

Then there is the Imitrex prescription I use. The pharmacy bills my insurance company $570 for 10 injections, but my insurance company pays a pre-agreed $120, and my insurance co-pay is $0. So, who pays the difference between the pharmacy $570 and my $0? People who have no insurance. Or they can't afford it, so they live with the pain.

[pyritechips]

Originally Posted by wacor

If there is a similar thread to this then either merge or remove this one.

Bill, there is also a "What's so bad about socialized medical care in the U.S." thread and a "The American Healthcare Crisis" thread, and that's just on the first page. I just hope everybody would pause and look for an existing thread before starting a new one. Multiple threads on the same topic only accomplish in cluttering up the forum.

I will let this thread stand but in the future I am going to start nuking threads that duplicate currently active topics. Let's be a little bit less lazy and search back a few pages, or do a search before starting a new thread.

The above was not aimed just at you, Bill, but at everybody.

[wacor]

Jim, I had hoped this to be more about the specifics of Obamacare as it progresses. That I thought would make it a bit different from the other threads.