[valis]

Originally Posted by MobiusJedi

Thank you. I enjoy our banter, and I agree entirely with your summary of debate.

ditto on both counts. still trying to figure out if you are a fresh face or a reincarnation, but regardless, it's wholly enjoyable.

[valis]

Originally Posted by MobiusJedi (to buffoon)

Judaism demands a blood sacrifice for the atonement of sins, I believe.

be wary of this one. He is long in the tooth, and his wisdom is far beyond his mortal years.

[hannab]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

....If we slam our Bible down on the table and start judging whom is saved, and whom is not, then we shall be judged by that same measure. (Matthew 7) Surely we can discern from sin and speak the truth about it....... But if we do not speak it in love, then we are like clanging, noisy cymbals .... doing MORE HARM TO THE KINGDOM THAN GOOD.
(1Cor 12 & 13)

As Christians, we must remain silent if we cannot share the truth in love, with grace, charity, and warmth. Without love we are strangers to God. Without love we, ourselves, do not even know Him. (1Jn 4)

Atheism wouldn't be nearly as popular today if it were not for the Christian who speaks the truth without love.
The stereotype "BIBLE THUMPER" is not an unreal stereotype.
Some Christians see that term as a compliment. I personally see that as highly derrogatory ... yet well earned for the most part.

It is far, far easier to speak the truith without love. And it is far, far easier to speak love without the truth.
What is difficult, challenging, and expected by God is that we speak the truth in love, that our words might be of effect. (Gal 5)....

Thanks for the verses Lan, they helped my write my confession for tomorrow's service. That is one thing I have great trouble with, being patient and loving towards those who mock and dismiss the Lord and his Word, good thing I keep most of my witnessing to singing

[ckphilli]

Originally Posted by hannab

Thanks for the verses Lan, they helped my write my confession for tomorrow's service. That is one thing I have great trouble with, being patient and loving towards those who mock and dismiss the Lord and his Word, good thing I keep most of my witnessing to singing

I hope that's not a passive wave off to what we've been discussing.

[Littlefield]

Originally Posted by ciberblade

See, that's the thing that we differ on. From my understanding, God could not allow anyone, anywhere, for any reason, the fate of eternal damnation. It is why a way was made to restore a relationship with God. I went through that process

Can you please expand on your statement.
Are you meaning people are given a choice of heavenly salvation and have free will to have a relationship with Christ not unconditional election like John Calvin ?
I do not hold onto a belief like Dante's Inferno but I also thought one of the main tenants of Christianity was hell, which is an eternal separation from God.

[ckphilli]

Listen, I'm sorry. I apologize all over myself in advance. Seriously, I don't want to alienate or offend anyone but I expect honesty from others so I give the same.

I have seen nothing but strife come as a product of religion. I am jaded. People very close to me have had an "altered" life because of religion. Christianity, specifically, has driven people close to me into insanity. And you of the faith tell me that that isn't the God they know. That isn't what it was meant to be. Well, to be very frank, saying that is a lot of malarkey on a very short pole.

Be honest. It's an escape . It's a way to rationalize what you can't understand. This is logical. We all search. Some of us keep searching, some of us settle. If you're mad, I'm sorry but I think the cards need to be on the table.

And to say the Bible is the word of God is equally ridiculous. How can you shape your life around a book? How silly does it sound to shape your life around Catcher in the Rye or To Kill a Mockingbird? Just think about it.

L Ron Hubbard made millions. How does that make you feel? It's not different no matter how you attempt to rationalize it.

We're all bat shinola crazy, but at least I admit it.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by hannab

Thanks for the verses Lan, they helped my write my confession for tomorrow's service. That is one thing I have great trouble with, being patient and loving towards those who mock and dismiss the Lord and his Word, good thing I keep most of my witnessing to singing

Tolerance is a very pro-active thing. It thus takes effort, often a great one.
Indifference is by comparison easy, enmity takes more work although nowhere near as much as tolerance.
Call tolerance love and that's ok. Good word.
The mockers and dismissers need to learn that as much as some Christians need to.
Same as I need to keep reminding myself.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by ckphilli

Listen, I'm sorry. I apologize all over myself in advance. Seriously, I don't want to alienate or offend anyone but I expect honesty from others so I give the same.

You always have done as far as I can make out

I have seen nothing but strife come as a product of religion. I am jaded. People very close to me have had an "altered" life because of religion. Christianity, specifically, has driven people close to me into insanity. And you of the faith tell me that that isn't the God they know. That isn't what it was meant to be. Well, to be very frank, saying that is a lot of malarkey on a very short pole.

I've seen all of it come from religion and strife was part of it. I've also seen good come from it (as good in good people). Maybe those people would have been good anyway, even if they had been or were without any religious faith, I don't know. Point is they had it and it provided a source of moral resolve for them. That needs to be seen as well.

Be honest. It's an escape . It's a way to rationalize what you can't understand. This is logical. We all search. Some of us keep searching, some of us settle. If you're mad, I'm sorry but I think the cards need to be on the table.

We all search

Search led the Hebrews from polytheism to mono-theism. It led the Christians to their own brand, which would not exist without Judaism and led the Muslims to their own brand in turn, based on both Christianity and Judaism. It led Protestantism to split off from Catholicism. It has led elsewhere and will continue to do so.

All of which demonstrates mankind's need for spirituality.

And to say the Bible is the word of God is equally ridiculous. How can you shape your life around a book? How silly does it sound to shape your life around Catcher in the Rye or To Kill a Mockingbird? Just think about it.

It is a reflection of the people and their need. Which incidentally the Catcher in the Rye was to some as well who indeed DID shape their life around it. Until they grew up.

L Ron Hubbard made millions. How does that make you feel? It's not different no matter how you attempt to rationalize it.

I don't but then I have no religion. But Ron L. Hubbard's message is pretty revealing if one bothers to read. Bit like "Mein Kampf".

We're all bat shinola crazy, but at least I admit it.

Oh, I follow suit.

Like guns don't kill or maim people unless people fire them, religions don't get misappropriated unless there's somebody around to do that. And the demagogues wouldn't succeed without the susceptibility of their followers.

Eradicate religion completely (it's been tried by demagogues of similar nature) and nothing would change. The same demagogues that sell the "better" alternative will misappropriate that same one the minutes it suits them. And mankind's susceptibility will cause many to follow.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by MobiusJedi

Judaism demands a blood sacrifice for the atonement of sins, I believe.

That was a long time ago and is no longer.

My question pertained to whether both Muslims and Mosaics are excluded from the Christian concept of salvation since they don't follow the Christian book. Jews principally reject Jesus and Muslims, although revering him as a prophet, reject the idea that He is the son of God.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by MobiusJedi

He's accountable to whatever laws apply in his own community, and whatever laws he has made for himself. I don't know how he would be judged. I wouldn't say anyone is consigned to damnation, that's not my call to make.

d'accord

Likewise, it's not anyone's call to make that a man is automatically pardoned from his sins by the fact that he hasn't heard the gospel. Scripture simply doesn't say that.

Conclusion being that we don't know?

[Littlefield]

Originally Posted by buffon

It is a reflection of the people and their need. Which incidentally the Catcher in the Rye was to some as well who indeed DID shape their life around it. Until they grew up.

R.I.P. Holden Caulfield, enemy of phoniness, seeker of authenticity, and the one guy who can truly say “I was just paying for her time

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by MobiusJedi

Sorry, I shouldn't have said bible when I meant the texts in their original form, as written - and that is what I call scripture. I would assume the Christian church was truest to scripture before the divisions and false teachings came about that necessitated the Nicene Creed, but there have always been splinter groups. As you might be alluding to, we can't really be certain if and when a false Christianity became orthodox or if true Christianity has remained orthodox. What we Christians can do is see how any given teaching lines up with scripture and with the Holy Spirit. Arianism undermines Christ's divinity and oneness with God - both scriptural - making salvation unattainable, so naturally I agree with the church's judgment at that time to convene at Nicaea and refute these heretical teachings.

I would assume that we don't really know the history of things happening between the crucifixion and the centuries to come (up til 325 A.D.) but the various "interpretations" of which Christianity was true and which one false did not occur until the council of Nicea was held and statutes of "true" and "heresy" were created. The Christian church (as a one) did not exists before the Nicene council (which was indeed the reason for holding it) and indeed schisms continued for long afterwards, non-trinitarianism (and the suppression of it) being one of the main issues.

One may well argue that by the Nicene council the church sought to become an extension of the Roman empire in order to participate in its power (benefit from its protection), especially since they benefited from the edicts of emperor Constantine the Great to back them up. He may well have been inspired but seems to have kept pretty mum about it.

Early Christianity within the Roman empire had a wide variety of competing sects with none of them splintering off of anything. So "splinter groups" would appear to be a "retroactive" label (as of 325). "Heresy" suffers the same conundrum. And whereas it was not decided at Nicea what "scripture" was, it was decided what "scripture" always had been, a far more questionable take IMO.

I also prefer the New King James version, which isn't exactly the current edition.

As long as you realize it wasn't James I that wrote it.

Interesting that a translation version authorized by a king and tailored in part to fit the schedules of the Church of England should find predominance in the US by the simple expedient of it being in English language.

Not that the Lutheran version, written by a mere monk, however rebellious in nature, differs significantly and it did indeed inspire English versions via Tyndale and Coverdale right up to the King James version.

Short of learning Hebrew and Greek, the best I can do is use commentaries and lexicons that go with each passage. If a full understanding of Christianity is the goal, it is essential to get as close to the root source as possible.

Indeed.

[hannab]

Originally Posted by ckphilli

I hope that's not a passive wave off to what we've been discussing.

no, not at all! that was all about me () and my issues and acknowledging how those passages speak to them.

carry on with the discussion - most of it is too deep for me.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by Littlefield

R.I.P. Holden Caulfield, enemy of phoniness, seeker of authenticity, and the one guy who can truly say “I was just paying for her time

Yeah, I liked him too. And R.I.P. Jerome David. It's been so long that hadn't you died 4 days ago I might have forgotten completely.

[Littlefield]

Originally Posted by buffoon

Yeah, I liked him too. And R.I.P. Jerome David. It's been so long that hadn't you died 4 days ago I might have forgotten completely.

Yossarian , Joseph Heller ,Catch- 22 can apply to this thread .
''So many things were testing his faith. There was the Bible, of course, but the Bible was a book, and so were Bleak House, Treasure Island, Ethan Frome and The Last of the Mohicans''