[buffoon]

Originally Posted by Littlefield

Yossarian , Joseph Heller ,Catch- 22 can apply to this thread .
''So many things were testing his faith. There was the Bible, of course, but the Bible was a book, and so were Bleak House, Treasure Island, Ethan Frome and The Last of the Mohicans''

Minderbinder: "As a matter of fact, Father, I know I can get my hands on an entire shipment of religious relics, blessed by the Pope himself. The Germans swiped them and put them on the open market. As I understand it, the stuff includes a wrist and collarbones of some of your top saints!"

Yeah, Yossarian would have loved it in here

[valis]

Originally Posted by Littlefield

Yossarian , Joseph Heller ,Catch- 22 can apply to this thread .
''So many things were testing his faith. There was the Bible, of course, but the Bible was a book, and so were Bleak House, Treasure Island, Ethan Frome and The Last of the Mohicans''

I wouldn't hesitate to add Asimov, Vonnegut, Heinlein, and quite possibly the last of the 20th century philosophers, P.K. Dick.

[pyritechips]

My favourite passage. Apply it to, say, Iraq today.

Capt. Nately: Don't you have any principles?
Old man in whorehouse: Of course not!
Capt. Nately: No morality?
Old man in whorehouse: I'm a very moral man, and Italy is a very moral country. That's why we will certainly come out on top again if we succeed in being defeated.
Capt. Nately: You talk like a madman.
Old man in whorehouse: But I live like a sane one. I was a fascist when Mussolini was on top. Now that he has been deposed, I am anti-fascist. When the Germans were here, I was fanatically pro-German. Now I'm fanatically pro-American. You'll find no more loyal partisan in all of Italy than myself.
Capt. Nately: You're a shameful opportunist! What you don't understand is that it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
Old man in whorehouse: You have it backwards. It's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees. I know.
Capt. Nately: How do you know?
Old man in whorehouse: Because I am 107-years-old. How old are you?
Capt. Nately: I'll be 20 in January.
Old man in whorehouse: If you live.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by pyritechips

My favourite passage. Apply it to, say, Iraq today.

wisdom incarnate

Followed by:
"He was very old"
"But he was only a boy"
"He's dead, you don't get any older"

Not as good as the old man in the whorehouse but it'll do.

[Ciberblade]

Originally Posted by Drabdr

Just to clarify... you do believe there are some people who are not going to Heaven, yes?

Originally Posted by Littlefield

I think he means people are given a choice and have free will to have a relationship with Christ not unconditional election like John Calvin but I will let him expand on his statement

In short....yes. For me, it all goes back to 'why were we made?' The answer as I understand it: To love and be in a relationship with us. Cannot have love without the freedom to choose, otherwise it is not love at all.

Originally Posted by thingamajig

I am waiting for the response also. Because, I do not believe one can reformulate Christianity to their liking and still claim to be one. Sorry Ciber - just being real.

Your ability to be real is valued above anything else...for me at least. I am not interested in reformulating Christianity. I am however interested in what is true, what is real. So I will continue to ask questions and seek answers

[ckphilli]

Originally Posted by buffoon

You always have done as far as I can make out
I've seen all of it come from religion and strife was part of it. I've also seen good come from it (as good in good people). Maybe those people would have been good anyway, even if they had been or were without any religious faith, I don't know. Point is they had it and it provided a source of moral resolve for them. That needs to be seen as well.

Search led the Hebrews from polytheism to mono-theism. It led the Christians to their own brand, which would not exist without Judaism and led the Muslims to their own brand in turn, based on both Christianity and Judaism. It led Protestantism to split off from Catholicism. It has led elsewhere and will continue to do so.

All of which demonstrates mankind's need for spirituality.
It is a reflection of the people and their need. Which incidentally the Catcher in the Rye was to some as well who indeed DID shape their life around it. Until they grew up.

I don't but then I have no religion. But Ron L. Hubbard's message is pretty revealing if one bothers to read. Bit like "Mein Kampf".

Oh, I follow suit.

Like guns don't kill or maim people unless people fire them, religions don't get misappropriated unless there's somebody around to do that. And the demagogues wouldn't succeed without the susceptibility of their followers.

Eradicate religion completely (it's been tried by demagogues of similar nature) and nothing would change. The same demagogues that sell the "better" alternative will misappropriate that same one the minutes it suits them. And mankind's susceptibility will cause many to follow.

Good points Derek. My brutal honesty has convinced me to stay out of these types of threads for a few years; don't even think I'll lurk around. I enjoy learning from other people, but I'm just not ready to discuss this with others in an amicable manner. It may give me a fresh outlook to not think about this for a while.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by ckphilli

Good points Derek. My brutal honesty has convinced me to stay out of these types of threads for a few years; don't even think I'll lurk around. I enjoy learning from other people, but I'm just not ready to discuss this with others in an amicable manner. It may give me a fresh outlook to not think about this for a while.

As they say, there's a time and place for everything. That includes it not being the time and not the place. The knack consists of knowing which

You know I'm not religious. But I don't oppose religions, in fact I find them quite interesting, those that I've investigated. It's when the bigotry, the hate and the fearmongering surface that the gloves come off.

[valis]

seconded and carried. Theology is well and good; try to stuff it down my throat and bad things can happen.

But what's truly sad is those that are so blinded by their belief that they fail to see outside the lines. Sure, Christianity is good and all that, but seeing as how nobody can prove anything about it, maybe give some other views a chance, instead, of calling them heretical scum and pushing them off into the pit of despair (located in Cleveland, OH).

[Drabdr]

I have the luxury of working with three guys (all christians) in a closed room. Saying we're pretty free to discuss what we wish. We are all of different faiths. Hence the reason I revisit this thread.

My faith has grown so much since I started being involved here in this forum. To say that, I was pretty reluctant to come to a place where, well, there were people (very bright, very eloquent) people, who did not embrace a level of christianity that I am usually around.

But what I have come to realize is that like the reluctance I had coming in here, many christians don't have the level of faith they think they have. They are unwilling to look at things differently, unwilling to accept that there might be more than 66 books in the bible, that Genesis might not be literal; petrified of the word "evolution". It's as if they are afraid that it will "suck" them in; they will cross over to the dark side. Geeze, that really cheapens the power of God (for those that believe) to influence and work in our lives.

Saying all this, I don't think it's that fundamentalist christians fixate on anything, but more they are unwilling to entertain any other notion or ideas.

Religion-man's quest to worship God. It's our best attempt, but still, a pretty feeble try at best. One thing I agree with many, non-christians (I hope that is a fair term; I hate labels) is the hypocrisy, and narrow-mindedness that many in established religions have. Each religion think theirs is the "stuff", and everybody else is crazy.

Now, I do believe each need to have a certain preference for their belief system. It's that love and passion that will encourage others to their way. However, it's the narrow-mindedness that needs to go.

I'm just saying, I agree that religion has some issues, as it is man's attempt to worship God. Since man is involved, we will screw it up.

But I still believe in the quest; in the race, if you will. It's that quest to better understand God, to develop a deeper relationship with him, that drives me more into my belief, and further strengthens my faith. Religion is not exact, but to me, it's close enough. When I can sit around with three other guys and disagree about the petty stuff, but agree about the big picture, then to me, a walk with God is still worth it.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Drabdr

I have the luxury of working with three guys (all christians) in a closed room. Saying we're pretty free to discuss what we wish. We are all of different faiths. Hence the reason I revisit this thread.

My faith has grown so much since I started being involved here in this forum. To say that, I was pretty reluctant to come to a place where, well, there were people (very bright, very eloquent) people, who did not embrace a level of christianity that I am usually around.

But what I have come to realize is that like the reluctance I had coming in here, many christians don't have the level of faith they think they have. They are unwilling to look at things differently, unwilling to accept that there might be more than 66 books in the bible, that Genesis might not be literal; petrified of the word "evolution". It's as if they are afraid that it will "suck" them in; they will cross over to the dark side. Geeze, that really cheapens the power of God (for those that believe) to influence and work in our lives.

Saying all this, I don't think it's that fundamentalist christians fixate on anything, but more they are unwilling to entertain any other notion or ideas.

Religion-man's quest to worship God. It's our best attempt, but still, a pretty feeble try at best. One thing I agree with many, non-christians (I hope that is a fair term; I hate labels) is the hypocrisy, and narrow-mindedness that many in established religions have. Each religion think theirs is the "stuff", and everybody else is crazy.

Now, I do believe each need to have a certain preference for their belief system. It's that love and passion that will encourage others to their way. However, it's the narrow-mindedness that needs to go.

I'm just saying, I agree that religion has some issues, as it is man's attempt to worship God. Since man is involved, we will screw it up.

But I still believe in the quest; in the race, if you will. It's that quest to better understand God, to develop a deeper relationship with him, that drives me more into my belief, and further strengthens my faith. Religion is not exact, but to me, it's close enough. When I can sit around with three other guys and disagree about the petty stuff, but agree about the big picture, then to me, a walk with God is still worth it.

i like the post, Brad....to me, the non-christain who believes in some sort of sprituality, it reveals a depth of "universality" -for lack of a better word- that is a down to earth version of the sentiments expressed by Teilhard de Chardin

well said

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by Drabdr

I have the luxury of working with three guys (all christians) in a closed room. Saying we're pretty free to discuss what we wish. We are all of different faiths. Hence the reason I revisit this thread.

My faith has grown so much since I started being involved here in this forum. To say that, I was pretty reluctant to come to a place where, well, there were people (very bright, very eloquent) people, who did not embrace a level of christianity that I am usually around.

But what I have come to realize is that like the reluctance I had coming in here, many christians don't have the level of faith they think they have. They are unwilling to look at things differently, unwilling to accept that there might be more than 66 books in the bible, that Genesis might not be literal; petrified of the word "evolution". It's as if they are afraid that it will "suck" them in; they will cross over to the dark side. Geeze, that really cheapens the power of God (for those that believe) to influence and work in our lives.

Saying all this, I don't think it's that fundamentalist christians fixate on anything, but more they are unwilling to entertain any other notion or ideas.

Religion-man's quest to worship God. It's our best attempt, but still, a pretty feeble try at best. One thing I agree with many, non-christians (I hope that is a fair term; I hate labels) is the hypocrisy, and narrow-mindedness that many in established religions have. Each religion think theirs is the "stuff", and everybody else is crazy.

Now, I do believe each need to have a certain preference for their belief system. It's that love and passion that will encourage others to their way. However, it's the narrow-mindedness that needs to go.

I'm just saying, I agree that religion has some issues, as it is man's attempt to worship God. Since man is involved, we will screw it up.

But I still believe in the quest; in the race, if you will. It's that quest to better understand God, to develop a deeper relationship with him, that drives me more into my belief, and further strengthens my faith. Religion is not exact, but to me, it's close enough. When I can sit around with three other guys and disagree about the petty stuff, but agree about the big picture, then to me, a walk with God is still worth it.

I have nothing to pick at here, at best to add the one or other thought.

What annoys me as much as the narrow mindedness of some Christians does is the narrow mindedness of some non believers. I've had a lot to do with the Eastern Bloc states in the times before the Iron Curtain fell and saw at first hand the suppression of religion there. Ironically to be replaced by dogma very much reminiscent of the Catholic church (the party is infallible aka always correct. !st communion was replaced by "youth consecration").

If religion was "opium for the masses" what the heck then was communism?

When travelling in Russia outside of the "safe" zones I'd most often get a "guide" who was quite unabashedly KGB. One of them explained the difference to me once (after copious amounts of Stolichnaya). In the Christian faith you strive to be good and work hard so that you may go to heaven after you die. In communism you strive to be good and work hard so that your children may LIVE in heaven after you die.

You gotta do something with people's spirituality it seems.

I'm glad you lost your reluctance Brad. You and I will probably disagree even about the big picture forever but that shouldn't preclude us from enjoying the wine together.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by iltos

i like the post, Brad....to me, the non-christain who believes in some sort of sprituality, it reveals a depth of "universality" -for lack of a better word- that is a down to earth version of the sentiments expressed by Teilhard de Chardin

well said

Not an original thought I'd wager but if there was ever a human line in evolution that was devoid of spirituality it appears not to have survived. So if only the fittest (most adapted or most adaptable) survive, does that make the spiritual more suited?

The spirituality gene has been often mentioned although never substantiated.

But what if the non-spirituals (if they ever existed) died out because they thought "oh heck, what's the point?"

Seems plausible, plausibility being of course no substantiation at all.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by buffoon

Not an original thought I'd wager but if there was ever a human line in evolution that was devoid of spirituality it appears not to have survived. So if only the fittest (most adapted or most adaptable) survive, does that make the spiritual more suited?

The spirituality gene has been often mentioned although never substantiated.

But what if the non-spirituals (if they ever existed) died out because they thought "oh heck, what's the point?"

Seems plausible, plausibility being of course no substantiation at all.

the whole point of what i see as "spirituality" is understanding -some neurochemical brain function that seeks meaning for itself, perhaps.....so -it'll be simplistic for some, i know- but science qualifies
as does atheism

which is why the concept that one belief is "more spiritual" (closer to a god, mo' better moral.....whatever) than another one can be seen (clear as a bell by me) as some other neurochemical brain function -a more primitive one- that sees the unknown in terms of flight or fight.....in the world of american religion, jim jones is an extreme example of the one and the westboro bapist church stands tall as a model for the other.

there are the closed minded at the other end of the "religiousity" spectrum, as well, who hide behind the barricades built easily by the pragmatism of stimulus/response (it's got some name....don't remember it)....

but out at the fringes, the desire to understand is clear, imo......albeit confused by the difference between simplicity defined by limitation (the certainty of belief) and simplicity defined by release.

[Drabdr]

Originally Posted by iltos

i like the post, Brad....to me, the non-christain who believes in some sort of sprituality, it reveals a depth of "universality" -for lack of a better word- that is a down to earth version of the sentiments expressed by Teilhard de Chardin

well said

Originally Posted by buffoon

I have nothing to pick at here, at best to add the one or other thought.

What annoys me as much as the narrow mindedness of some Christians does is the narrow mindedness of some non believers. I've had a lot to do with the Eastern Bloc states in the times before the Iron Curtain fell and saw at first hand the suppression of religion there. Ironically to be replaced by dogma very much reminiscent of the Catholic church (the party is infallible aka always correct. !st communion was replaced by "youth consecration").

If religion was "opium for the masses" what the heck then was communism?

When travelling in Russia outside of the "safe" zones I'd most often get a "guide" who was quite unabashedly KGB. One of them explained the difference to me once (after copious amounts of Stolichnaya). In the Christian faith you strive to be good and work hard so that you may go to heaven after you die. In communism you strive to be good and work hard so that your children may LIVE in heaven after you die.

You gotta do something with people's spirituality it seems.

I'm glad you lost your reluctance Brad. You and I will probably disagree even about the big picture forever but that shouldn't preclude us from enjoying the wine together.

Thank you, guys. I hope everyone has a great weekend.

[jmosmith]

Originally Posted by Drabdr

Thank you, guys. I hope everyone has a great weekend.

Only if the Saints win the Super Bowl,.... hey, it's a religious thread, right!?

GEAUX SAINTS!!!