[iltos]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

It is an absolute truth. Abortion is the intentional killing of a living human being who would otherwise desire to continue living who has done nothing to deserve to be killed.

that certainly is one definition of abortion, LAN
it's absolute tho....only because it's yours

Truth is not merely what you want it to be.

not always, no.....how far do you want to stretch out the absurdity of this thing?

Is the sky blue?, is the water wet?

all the way to this, huh?

You can pretend all you want that truth is in the eye of the beholder, but certain things simply are true whether or not you wish to acknowledge the fact.

i think i already said that in my previous post

[LANMaster]

Sorry ... Abortion is a touchy issue for me. Death is final and absolute.
To claim that it is anything different than that is, well, frankly, offensive.

[katonca]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

It is an absolute truth. Abortion is the intentional killing of a living human being who would otherwise desire to continue living who has done nothing to deserve to be killed.

Originally Posted by iltos

that certainly is one definition of abortion, LAN
it's absolute tho....only because it's yours

Abortion is a highly touchy subject to me also. Iltos, LAN's definition of abortion is spot on (killing of an innocent life which otherwise would rather live). How else would abortion be described?

[iltos]

Originally Posted by katonca

Abortion is a highly touchy subject to me also. Iltos, LAN's definition of abortion is spot on (killing of an innocent life which otherwise would rather live). How else would abortion be described?

i do hope that oneday, everyone will understand the absence of personal responsibility that ends up making abortion an option....but i will always take issue with the blanket statement of abortion as "murder"
i've seen all the pictures, heard all the horror stories...blah, blah, blah....my absolute truth is not so dissimilar from yours in many ways: our major separation is attaching the word murder to an organism which is, at best, a potential.
and i don't agree that choosing to destroy potential is murder: a casual decision it should never be, and perhaps too frequently is.....but the difference between potential and human is as real to me as your god is to you.

all of which is neither here nor there: the only point i'm trying to make is that defining abortion as murder is to frame your beliefs in a legal sense, imo.....an attempt to make the issue absolute so as to change the law....when in truth, its absoluteness is a result of your beliefs about the sanctity of all life and the preservation of the innocent in the eyes of god.

[MobiusJedi]

Originally Posted by iltos

welcome to TSG MobiusJedi....your phrase about evolution makes the very concept relative and so not a truth at all, according to your last phrase.
your phrase about abortion is an opinion derived from your beliefs, but is stated as tho it were an absolute truth.....

It's only a start.

My statement about evolution shows that language is relative, which it already was long before our keyboards existed. Science is by no means absolute, so can there even be an absolute truth about science as a whole, or one of its fields? I hardly meant to suggest that the idea of absolute truth could be applied to everything I said, including "depends how one defines evolution." That isn't even an opinion, it's a request for more information. Frankly, I don't see how it follows from my post that "depends how one defines evolution" is related to absolute truth at all, other than how it fits in the presented list of fundamentalist fixations - which, much like evolution, depends how one defines fundamentalist Christian (or even simply Christian.)

As for abortion, it would take more than just hubris for anyone to state exactly when life begins. (I also tend to be stark about the topic, even though I find it acceptable in extreme cases such as rape or incest - but not necessarily encouraged in such cases. However, as a means of post-conception birth control, I will always consider the act detestable. I'm very tired of people who attempt to prove the universal 'right' to choose abortion using the exceptions to the norm as their defense.) By the way, though my views on evolution could be called opinions, my view on abortion is not. My stance on abortion is a direct extrapolation of my faith, and faith is not an opinion.

you seem to be demonstrating that absolute truth is simply the result of a belief system
i have no arguement with THAT statement as an absolute truth....everything that you stated, however, is relative

As may be inferred is not necessarily what is being demonstrated. Beyond that, I wasn't aware I was demonstrating anything in my preliminary blurb of a post.

I didn't say what it was that I believe to be absolute truth in any sort of distinct terms. In my previous post, I approached absolute truth as an abstract. I only mentioned what I believe must logically be true about the existence of truth (in general) and absolute truth. (And when I say "I believe" I don't mean to suggest it is a matter of opinion, but a matter of ever-possible human error.) Don't forget, I wasn't the one who put evolution and abortion together with absolute truth, so it seems unreasonable to assume my position on any of the three relies directly on any other.

which doesn't make it bad, mind you....just what you believe to be absolute....perhaps, then, it is "absoluteness" that is the true fixation....for all of us

Ah, but do you really know what I believe? Do we even agree upon what absolute is, beyond how our language defines it? I'm not saying relative truth doesn't exist, I'm saying the phrase is a misnomer. I'm not pretending for a second that any of my personal beliefs constitute absolute truth.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by MobiusJedi

It's only a start.

no kidding!!

My stance on abortion is a direct extrapolation of my faith, and faith is not an opinion.

it is tho when it applies to science....that seems to be your assertion.

[MobiusJedi]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Is the sky blue?, is the water wet? You can pretend all you want that truth is in the eye of the beholder, but certain things simply are true whether or not you wish to acknowledge the fact.

Water being wet is a good illustration, the sky being blue, however, is not. The sky only appears blue; oxygen, nitrogen, CO2 and all that are not blue. Plus, someone born blind would never see a blue sky.

What you said makes me think that modern thought does tend to confuse truth with beauty. "Relative truth" is contradictory. If it's true in one instance, yet untrue in another, how can it be truth, strictly speaking? Beauty, on the other hand, is exactly that. True for one, but not for the other. Even better, if beauty is relative truth, art is absolute truth. I'm speaking of true art of course, not just entertainment or a pleasant hobby. Art can speak volumes to the soul about absolute truths - pleasant or unpleasant, yet a certain beholder may find that art ugly or bland when it's so beautiful to others.

BTW .... welcome to CD, Mobius, and thanks for the threadzurrection. Your username sounds familiar. Were you here before?

Thanks! I came around trying to fix my computer (or, perhaps more correctly, request assistance to keep me from killing the poor machine.) The name Mobius is usually taken (I didn't even check this time) while MobiusJedi is apparently all mine. . . hmmm, I'd better run around the internet and sign up everywhere! Maybe you're familiar with the möbius strip?

[MobiusJedi]

Originally Posted by iltos

no kidding!!


it is tho when it applies to science....that seems to be your assertion.

That is an incredibly vague statement. What is when what applies to science? Whatever seems to you to be my assertion, I get the distinct feeling it's really not.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by MobiusJedi

That is an incredibly vague statement. What is when what applies to science? Whatever seems to you to be my assertion, I get the distinct feeling it's really not.

fair enough....what=opinion

more to the point tho....
"faith is not an opinion".....in this discussion, the relative use of your language would point to it being an absolute truth

my contention is that it is.....for you....when it crosses the gulf between you and i, tho, it loses that distinction

which, from this statement

What you said makes me think that modern thought does tend to confuse truth with beauty. "Relative truth" is contradictory. If it's true in one instance, yet untrue in another, how can it be truth, strictly speaking? Beauty, on the other hand, is exactly that. True for one, but not for the other.

leads me to conclude that your faith is a thing of beauty for you.
i'm good with that

[valis]

Originally Posted by MobiusJedi

Science is by no means absolute, so can there even be an absolute truth about science as a whole, or one of its fields?

man, I could take that and run nine ways from sunday with it. Lessee.

1. No, science tends to avoid absolutes.

2. Science is the methodology of turning a theory into fact.

3. Gnosis is the pursuit of knowledge

4. Does that mean gnosis is science?

too busy to do more than that, and I've sworn off civ deb for a few........and oddly enough, that coincided with my quitting smoking.......how about that..........

cheers!

[stella45]

Originally Posted by Drabdr

... and trying to get as many people to Heaven with them as they can.

Originally Posted by poochee

Amen!

if a faetus is innocent, then doesn't aborting it give it a fast-track to heaven?
maybe the aborting parents won't go to heaven "with them" but what better love can man show, than to lay down his very soul for the one's he loves.his faeti!

maybe christians should encourage their woman to take fertility drugs...ten faeti/souls per implant at a time, take an abortion pill to get rid/free the souls...done on a monthly basis one woman could concieve of upwards of 3000 in a lifetime
just think of the population explosion in heaven.

a slogan comes to mind "populate heaven, kill a kid" oooh deja du. valis,please read "populate heaven,abort a faetus".

i commend this to all believers of all faiths


LAN>

"the majority of the world through the ages has believed in God in one way or another"

the majority of kids in the west have believed in santa at one time or another.wonder why. LOL.

[LANMaster]

blah, blah, blah???

I thought you embraced science, iltos

You find the label, "murder" distasteful. For that I am glad. But why do you find it distasteful?
Is it distasteful because life is precious, and that the stealing of innocent life from the living without their consent is ... perhaps ..... WRONG?

You do see murder itself as an absolutely wrong thing to do. That is a great moral understanding that should help you to understand the position of those people who oppose making abortion a criminal act.

You see morality is not something that can be decided upon by an individual's "choice".

Leave the question of faith completely out of the question, and murder is still wrong.

So obviously, the question boils down to defining when human life begins. Scientifically, human life begins at conception. You aren't about to deny the truth of science, are you?

Please note, everyone, that I support legal abortion rights within the first trimester of pregnancy. You all should know that about me. It is a decision overr which I have agonized for years. It is a point upon which my Pastor and I strongly disagree.

HOWEVER ... I am willing to man-up and call it what it is. Murder. By definition, that is the truth. The difference is that the living human is wholly dependent upon the mother for survival. The Mother's rights come into play, and must not be ignored to fully supercede the rights of another. This position is difficult for me to justify, because like does begin at conception. But at least I am not sugar coating the issue, or pretending that there are not, or should not be consequences for abortion. While I believe it must remain a legal option in the first trimester, I feel that some mandatory counseling is in order.

Where I come down STRONGLY is my opposition for late term abortion where the baby CAN SURVIVE outside of the mother's womb. That is a form of murder that should carry with it mandatory jail time.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

blah, blah, blah???

don't you roll your eyes at my blah blah blah
.....it wasn't a statement meant to dismiss the evidence.....it was just an etc, with an "oomph" added to (hopefully) dissuade anybody from introducing it into this discussion

I thought you embraced science, iltos

i do...are you implying that the pictures prove that a viable fetus is a human innocent?

You find the label, "murder" distasteful. For that I am glad. But why do you find it distasteful?

i (quickly) reread my post......where did i say i find the label murder distasteful?
the "absense of personal responsibility that makes abortion an option" has nothing whatsoever to do with the word murder......

Is it distasteful because life is precious, and that the stealing of innocent life from the living without their consent is ... perhaps ..... WRONG?

oh.....here we are....at the reason for your post....so you can state YOUR feelings about the subject

i've always respected your conclusions.....seems as though two versions of "truth" can both be reasonably thought out

tho of course....they're both absolutely true

HOWEVER ... I am willing to man-up and call it what it is

.
i'll acknowledge that you made this statement......i've witnessed your witnessing....that's a good thing, right?

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by iltos

don't you roll your eyes at my blah blah blah
.....it wasn't a statement meant to dismiss the evidence.....it was just an etc, with an "oomph" added to (hopefully) dissuade anybody from introducing it into this discussion

i do...are you implying that the pictures prove that a viable fetus is a human innocent?

Y E S though I am not sure to which picture you refer. I am, yet again, assuming.

i (quickly) reread my post......where did i say i find the label murder distasteful?

I assumed that you did, based on your response.

the "absense of personal responsibility that makes abortion an option" has nothing whatsoever to do with the word murder......

No, but deliberately killing a living human being does.

oh.....here we are....at the reason for your post....so you can state YOUR feelings about the subject

Just sharing my position. I think it is relevant to the discussion.

i've always respected your conclusions.....seems as though two versions of "truth" can both be reasonably thought out

tho of course....they're both absolutely true

Thanks, but I am not pretending that amortion is not murder ... in either case.

i'll acknowledge that you made this statement......i've witnessed your witnessing....that's a good thing, right?

It's all good.

I'll be back later.

[iltos]

Y E S though I am not sure to which picture you refer. I am, yet again, assuming.

on some, i agree....on others i don't

I assumed that you did, based on your response.

of course i do....but the rest of my post make no sense if just go along with you puttin words in my mouth

No, but deliberately killing a living human being does

ok

Just sharing my position. I think it is relevant to the discussion.

it is

Thanks, but I am not pretending that amortion is not murder ... in either case.

no....your pretending that it is....

It's all good.

yeppers

I'll be back later.

me, too