[MobiusJedi]

Originally Posted by iltos

fair enough....what=opinion

more to the point tho....
"faith is not an opinion".....in this discussion, the relative use of your language would point to it being an absolute truth

Faith is faith. Opinions are generally malleable, and not necessarily based on fact or knowledge, yet applied to some sort of knowledge. An opinion is a view or an outlook. There are certainly similarities between faith and opinion, and I can see how faith can be perceived as being a feeling, (which is more or less what an opinion is) however, faith is not a feeling or an outlook. Faith reinforces a certain type of outlook, influences opinion, and is associated with many feelings that are probably something else entirely. I experience a distinction between intuition and faith, for instance; intuition being a faculty I possessed even when I had little or no faith.

In a way, faith could be said to be an absolute truth. Everyone has faith in something. But then, it's not faith itself that is an absolute truth per se, rather, that particular statement about faith is. Would you agree that everyone has some measure of faith in something? Even those who claim to have faith in nothing, or no faith in anything, place faith in themselves, money, success, or a variety of different things any given day.

I wouldn't say my own faith is an absolute truth, if that's what you're getting at, more like a quest for absolute truth.

my contention is that it is.....for you....when it crosses the gulf between you and i, tho, it loses that distinction

I'm still confused what you're saying exactly. I get the gist, but not enough to understand what you're saying about "it" and whether or not "it" means absolute truth, or something else (faith? science?).

which, from this statement

leads me to conclude that your faith is a thing of beauty for you.
i'm good with that

Ah, but it's not the beauty that makes it true, it's the truth that makes it beautiful. That's what I believe absolute truth has in common with art.

[pyritechips]

Originally Posted by MobiusJedi

...depends how one defines evolution, abortion is murder, and relative truth is no truth at all; if there is such a thing as truth, it must be absolute.



Though the common reasoning is simplified, I understand the distinction. Unborn life is innocent so justice is served by protecting the innocent. Capitol punishment, when the justice system functions correctly, punishes the guilty, not the innocent.



Oh, the rest of the quote is gone. . . [Love your God with all your heart, mind, body, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.]

Anyway, to be fair, the three fixations mentioned tend to result from this command. Also, doesn't that really count as one? To love your neighbor as yourself is the product of loving God with all your heart...

You best be careful what you say about evolution.

The courts disagree with you on the abortion issue.

If you think there is no relative truth, as you phrase it, then you have never studied physics.

[LANMaster]

Wow ..... you may be right, iltos

Merriam Web

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: \ˈmər-dər\
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Anglo-French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
Date: before 12th century
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous <the traffic was murder> b : something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>


So .... if it is not illegal, then it is not murder, I guess.

[pyritechips]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

It is an absolute truth. Abortion is the intentional killing of a living human being who would otherwise desire to continue living who has done nothing to deserve to be killed.

murder ........... The very definition.
That is a fact, and that is an absolute truth... as distasteful as you wish it weren't.

Truth is not merely what you want it to be.



Is the sky blue?, is the water wet? You can pretend all you want that truth is in the eye of the beholder, but certain things simply are true whether or not you wish to acknowledge the fact.



BTW .... welcome to CD, Mobius, and thanks for the threadzurrection. Your username sounds familiar. Were you here before?

The sky is blue? Where? What colour is it on Mars?

Is light a wave or a particle?

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by pyritechips

The sky is blue? Where? What colour is it on Mars?

Is light a wave or a particle?

LOL Both of you guys missed the point I was making about the sky color.

If I go outside right now (it happens to be sunny at the moment) and I look up, the sky looks a lovely shade of blue.

It doesn't look black, red or green, or even neutral. The sky looks blue.
If you try to tell me that the sky is not appearing to be blue, then you are denying an absolute truth.
The sky "looks" blue.

Light is photonic. It is neither wave nor particle.

[MobiusJedi]

Originally Posted by pyritechips

You best be careful what you say about evolution.

Science is as science does.

By the way, you're late to the party. Your reply was pretty much covered earlier.

The courts disagree with you on the abortion issue.

Some of them, but that's not saying much. Historically speaking, the courts supported slavery once upon a time. I wouldn't have agreed with prohibition either, had I been around. Besides, the 10th amendment reserves the issue to the states (not the only power that has been taken from the states in the past century.) As I see it, Roe vs Wade was an unchecked error in judgment.

If you think there is no relative truth, as you phrase it, then you have never studied physics.

It's the theory of relativity, not the theory of relative truth, and I never said there is no relative truth. That's not how I phrased it; you're assuming unstated information - an all too common symptom of internet forums.

[pyritechips]

Originally Posted by MobiusJedi

Science is as science does.

By the way, you're late to the party. Your reply was pretty much covered earlier.



Some of them, but that's not saying much. Historically speaking, the courts supported slavery once upon a time. I wouldn't have agreed with prohibition either, had I been around. Besides, the 10th amendment reserves the issue to the states (not the only power that has been taken from the states in the past century.) As I see it, Roe vs Wade was an unchecked error in judgment.



It's the theory of relativity, not the theory of relative truth, and I never said there is no relative truth. That's not how I phrased it; you're assuming unstated information - an all too common symptom of internet forums.

You're wrong. I am the party.

Absolute truth can never be proved absolutely.

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by pyritechips

Absolute truth can never be proved absolutely.

Oh Yeah! Prove it.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Wow ..... you may be right, iltos

Merriam Web

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: \ˈmər-dər\
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Anglo-French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
Date: before 12th century
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous <the traffic was murder> b : something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>


So .... if it is not illegal, then it is not murder, I guess.

You can turn it into "if it's legal.........".

Not that that means too much on its own. It was not only legal but custom under the Nazis to chop off the heads of those citizens that had merely expressed doubts at winning WWII. Proper trial and all.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by buffoon

You can turn it into "if it's legal.........".

Not that that means too much on its own. It was not only legal but custom under the Nazis to chop off the heads of those citizens that had merely expressed doubts at winning WWII. Proper trial and all.

.... Just as the USA has done with abortion.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

.... Just as the USA has done with abortion.

Difference being that there was no societal consensus on this in Germany at the time (nobody supported the measures but for obvious reasons kept pretty mum about that). I'm not sure what the percentages of pros and cons are in the US on abortion but I guess at minimum it's split down the middle.

The take of the pro-abortionists obviously being (as it is over here) that life does not start up til a certain date after conception and removal of the fetus before that date cannot constitute even the taking of life.

I find the date fixing problematic but I guess if you'd work in absolutes you'd have to sentence the followers of Onan every time.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by MobiusJedi

In a way, faith could be said to be an absolute truth. Everyone has faith in something. But then, it's not faith itself that is an absolute truth per se, rather, that particular statement about faith is. Would you agree that everyone has some measure of faith in something?

i think i'm one of the few here who does say that.

wouldn't say my own faith is an absolute truth, if that's what you're getting at, more like a quest for absolute truth.

welpers mobius (and apt name, btw ) if it's a quest, then we've got another word to sort out.....a quest is the journey to a specific thing....but the journey itself is malleable by its events...so your faith has aspects which both opinion and truth.....

but again...it being your quest, both the opinions and the truth it expresses are either malleable or certain according to your criteria....which to me makes the whole thing a mobius strip in some ways, and a moot point in terms of whatever the heck it is we're talking about.

I'm still confused what you're saying exactly. I get the gist, but not enough to understand what you're saying about "it" and whether or not "it" means absolute truth, or something else (faith? science?).

that's ok...i've lost interest

Ah, but it's not the beauty that makes it true, it's the truth that makes it beautiful. That's what I believe absolute truth has in common with art.

and the same arguement would make absolute truth just as subjective as art.

[valis]

just in case this was missed the first time around.......

Originally Posted by valis

man, I could take that and run nine ways from sunday with it. Lessee.

1. No, science tends to avoid absolutes.

2. Science is the methodology of turning a theory into fact.

3. Gnosis is the pursuit of knowledge

4. Does that mean gnosis is science?

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by iltos

and the same arguement would make absolute truth just as subjective as art.

And faith as well (subjective that is). Of course those with faith will argue otherwise; they have too otherwise they wouldn't have faith.

So, if art and faith are subjective, I guess you could say my faith is the art equivalent of dogs playing poker.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

And faith as well (subjective that is). Of course those with faith will argue otherwise; they have too otherwise they wouldn't have faith.

So, if art and faith are subjective, I guess you could say my faith is the art equivalent of dogs playing poker.

i wuz jus' gonna be stoopid and post a piture of dem dogs....but i found dis insted