[LANMaster]

There you go. You lefties HATE being called Communists, and yet you trot out douchebag Communists like Noam Chomsky to make your point that Communism ain't so bad.

Why don't all you lefties out there simply admit that you favor Communism so we can all get the debate back on track?

[iltos]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

There you go. You lefties HATE being called Communists, and yet you trot out douchebag Communists like Noam Chomsky to make your point that Communism ain't so bad.

Why don't all you lefties out there simply admit that you favor Communism so we can all get the debate back on track?

LAN, LAN, LAN
*sigh*

do you even know what i'm referring too?

or because what you refer to as the "paranoia of the way we handled it" is so old, are you just ignoring that what was paranoia then hasn't really changed all that much.

[Wino]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

That is very interesting. The only argument that I can give you is that Communism is worthy of fearing, but I cannot disagree with you about the paranoid way it was all going down.

You think if we had allied with Castro that he would not have embraced the Soviets?

Not sure that hindsight is 20/20, because I believe Castro was a Communist long before deposing Batista.

Anyway, it is an interesting point to ponder.

Should the US do anything in Honduras? Should we back the semi-legitimate Zeleya Communists or should we perhaps ignore it and allow to happen in our own hemisphere, the same situation we find in Darfur?

Castro had no one to turn to but communist. Had we helped Castro depose Bautista, I do believe he would not have turned to the Soviets. Not saying he wouldn't have remained a leftist, but probably not such a hardliner.
Honduras was having problems back when I was working there in 1980. The hotel I stayed in in San Pedro Sulu was bombed a few years back. They had problems for years, but under the deposed president Zelaya things were better for the people. Honduras is no different than any other Latin American country - allowing the masses to rule is a no-no - educating them is a no-no. The ruling class wants to continue steering the boat while the peons do what they do - make the rulers rich. We should not recognized the jaunta, get Zelaya back at the helm, then stand back.

Dafur is a lost cause - always has been, always will be. They have no oil.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by iltos

LAN, LAN, LAN
*sigh*

do you even know what i'm referring too?

or because what you refer to as the "paranoia of the way we handled it" is so old, are you just ignoring that what was paranoia then hasn't really changed all that much.

Seems like you're dodging, but that's cool.

Wino may be correct. I appreciate that he is willing to admit that Castro would probably continued with his deep leftism even if we had helped him oust Patista, or hadn't bothered with that little piggy invasion of his country.

On the other hand, he might have gone along with his buddy Kruschev anyway. Who knows.

But Communism truly is something about which some paranoia is warranted. To deny that is just plain silly or misguided, IMO.


Either way, the cozsiness with which the left has today with Communism is disgustingly frightening.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Seems like you're dodging, but that's cool.

Wino may be correct. I appreciate that he is willing to admit that Castro would probably continued with his deep leftism even if we had helped him oust Patista, or hadn't bothered with that little piggy invasion of his country.

On the other hand, he might have gone along with his buddy Kruschev anyway. Who knows.

But Communism truly is something about which some paranoia is warranted. To deny that is just plain silly or misguided, IMO.


Either way, the cozsiness with which the left has today with Communism is disgustingly frightening.

not dodging at all, LAN....more like dumbfounded that you would consider what Wino is saying because he makes a political distinction that you can cozy up to, and lump me in with your doucebags because i maintain it's not about your comfort level

[Fidelista]

Originally Posted by Wino

Castro had no one to turn to but communist. Had we helped Castro depose Bautista, I do believe he would not have turned to the Soviets. Not saying he wouldn't have remained a leftist, but probably not such a hardliner.
Honduras was having problems back when I was working there in 1980. The hotel I stayed in in San Pedro Sulu was bombed a few years back. They had problems for years, but under the deposed president Zelaya things were better for the people. Honduras is no different than any other Latin American country - allowing the masses to rule is a no-no - educating them is a no-no. The ruling class wants to continue steering the boat while the peons do what they do - make the rulers rich. We should not recognized the jaunta, get Zelaya back at the helm, then stand back.

Dafur is a lost cause - always has been, always will be. They have no oil.

Correct you are . Fidel was early on a nationalist , a leftist one . He had a strong interest in reform , self determination , and restoration of the 1940 constitution .
He was dreamer in a way , because what he originally sought was impossible .
He was well aware of Marxism , but did not rule out another path . Those around him including Raul pointed out the obvious -- that the U.S. would never allow anything less than a right wing puppet govt , and would oppose any reform by force .
Cuba simply could not operate in democratic way --- when bribes , CIA, murder ,and even threat of military invasion prevented it .
Its a matter of debate , but I do not believe Fidel let go of his fantasies until right after the Revolution . His approaches to the U.S. were not appreciated , and those who surrounded him were proven correct . Not wanting to appear a fool , or naive , the "Marxist from the start" story began , and Fidel pushed it .
Was Fidel a leftist ? of course . He intended reform and intended to deal with the poor and their horrible situation.
State socialism,or democratic socialism was only option , and democratic socialism would have never survived . The U.S would have subverted it .
By adopting the Marxist position , this made available the only possible defense of the revolution there was -- Soviet aid . Without it , CIA, Marines , and all that goes with that.
The problem was , that with Soviet aid , the revolution would be relativly safe { except for American and Cuban terrorism } but economically crippled .
The Cubans opted for sovereignty , dignity , justice , self -determination , security , and reform -the end of racism , medical care , education ect ect .
A huge price has been paid for this , loss of freedom we enjoy , and the biggest most important trading partner . This has held back a nation that was poor to start with .

I agree that it did not have to go the way it did , but I have never seen Cuba having, being given any other option ??? . Anything less than what was done , and you would have another Haiti - DR-- Salvador ect would you not ?. .
This subject is important , not only for relations with Cuba , but for the rest of the world . There are lessons to be learned , and not repeated..
Had I been President back then , I would have invoked Americas revolutionary history and spirit , and supported the revolution. I would have understood the reasons , the history . I would also not allowed the big industries to refuse payment for any finacial loss --this hurt many smaller business interests and promised more trouble . I would pushed for fair payment --and I would have got it .
I would have allowed Cuba to be sovereign , and respected what they were trying to accomplish .
In the end , there would have been no Soviet in Cuba , no missile crises , trade that benefited U.S. and Cuba would have flourished , tourism would have also helped a great deal.
Its called being good neighbors .
Basically , wino , I agree with your take , and others , on this subject . >f

[Fidelista]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Either way, the cozsiness with which the left has today with Communism is disgustingly frightening.

I assume you are speaking about the Chinese communists ???.
From what hear they are our "friends " and "saviors" . Wal~Mart ran by leftists ???
Its those democratically elected liberals down south that pose the threat !
>f

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by Fidelista

I assume you are speaking about the Chinese communists ???.
From what hear they are our "friends " and "saviors" . Wal~Mart ran by leftists ???
Its those democratically elected liberals down south that pose the threat !
>f

What I find highly amusing is that the most ardent communist haters on here appear to never have met one. If they had (and recognized him/her as such) they'd have to reclassify Dems as conservatives and Republicans as Nazis. Not that either label would be in the least true but it shows how deep one can get oneself into the mire if one lacks definition examples.

Better to get out more. Otherwise you wind up sitting at home and making it up as you go from pantry to kitchen.

Splendid isolation!

Yeah, right.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by iltos

not dodging at all, LAN....more like dumbfounded that you would consider what Wino is saying because he makes a political distinction that you can cozy up to, and lump me in with your doucebags because i maintain it's not about your comfort level

LOL I don't think of you as a douchebag.
Wino, perhaps, Nahhhhh Wino's cool. But there are douchebags out there who are elected representatives, such as;

Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Henry Waxman, Maxine Waters, John Kerry, Barbie Boxer, DiFi, Grayson, Murtha, Gore, Rockefeller, Durbin ...
to name a few in a very long list.



Make some political distinctions that I agree with and I'll be happy to cozy up to them as well. he he he

Actually, I disagree with you less often than I may have allowed you to assume.

Communism is a bad thing. A very bad thing. No mayyer how much perfume you wish to spray it with, it is still a stinking turd.
Some slick douchebags (not you) may be able yo polish that turd so you can see your reflection within it (Mythbusters did this) but Communism is still a stinking turd.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by Fidelista

I assume you are speaking about the Chinese communists ???.
From what hear they are our "friends " and "saviors" . Wal~Mart ran by leftists ???
Its those democratically elected liberals down south that pose the threat !
>f

LOL Not totally, but Wal-Mart is a Capitaslist venture whom we can truly thank for bringing much employment to China and all around the world.

I agree about those Southern Libbers posing a threat

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by buffoon

What I find highly amusing is that the most ardent communist haters on here appear to never have met one. If they had (and recognized him/her as such) they'd have to reclassify Dems as conservatives and Republicans as Nazis. Not that either label would be in the least true but it shows how deep one can get oneself into the mire if one lacks definition examples.

Better to get out more. Otherwise you wind up sitting at home and making it up as you go from pantry to kitchen.

Splendid isolation!

Yeah, right.

LOL I have met plenty. More than my share.

I will admit one thing to you, though; There are a few right wing Nazis. But they are the farthest thing from Conservatives.
And there are just about the same number of Conservative Dems out there. There's a few (Lieberman springs to mind) but only a few.

[LANMaster]

A blow to tyrrany, a victory for Democracy and freedom.

Surely a disappointment for the left.

Report: Zelaya Will Be Exiled to Spain--
Charged With Crimes If He Returns to Honduras

Here's the latest on the Zelaya-Micheletti Honduras standoff--
An agreement was reached last night but was not made public. Today the government will release the details on the agreement.

The initial reports that Manuel Zelaya would be reinstated as president were not accurate.

The latest speculation comes from my sources inside the Micheletti government.
President Micheletti will step down and may be moved to a position connected to the Honduran Supreme Court.

Former President Manuel Zelaya will be exiled to Spain. If he comes back to Honduras he will be charged for his many crimes discovered after he was ousted for circumventing the constitution.

Another official will step in as president until elections in November.

Gateway

[iltos]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

A blow to tyrrany, a victory for Democracy and freedom

or....maybe not


personally, i believe it when the caption scrolls by, saying that Micheletti vows "to restore liberties".....

liberties?
i thought the honduran people has liberties BEFORE this happened

oh....wait....i get it
he means as soon as this is over

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by iltos

or....maybe not


personally, i believe it when the caption scrolls by, saying that Micheletti vows "to restore liberties".....

liberties?
i thought the honduran people has liberties BEFORE this happened

oh....wait....i get it
he means as soon as this is over

If you'll read the article I posted, it looks like neither Micheletti or Zelaya will be heading the government.

Why such a strong desire to see Zeleya overthrow the Honduran Constitution?

[iltos]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

If you'll read the article I posted, it looks like neither Micheletti or Zelaya will be heading the government.

Why such a strong desire to see Zeleya overthrow the Honduran Constitution?

i read the article....the vid predates it, and states that peaceful demonstrations are considered sedition under the current constitution....so -on the one hand- the school teacher and the peasant who were arrested for protesting Zelaya's fate got what they deserved, under the law.

try having a tea party in Honduras and see what you think of their constitution

the bottom line for me continues to be this: the constitutional convention that Zelaya called for was after his term had expired....i've seen no evidence that his intent was to remain in power, only that he felt it was time to discuss the one term limitation.

i'm the first to acknowledge that the constitution's strong stance against demonstrations and for term limits served a vital function in Honduras when it was adopted.

but i see nothing evil/communistic/tyrannical about opening up the subject to a discussion after all this time: from what i've read, IF it was to be changed, it would be changed by a vote, not decree.

it may well be that Zelaya is no saint -i never claimed he was....it may well be that he is a leftist, more interested in populist policies than captialistic ones....none of that, imo, has any bearing on what happened....

or at least it shouldn't......but you and your sources -including your Honduran friend- demonstrate that it does.

the following is not an attack on your beliefs, LAN....but consider
self-determinism....it is one of the hallmarks of christainity....why does it only apply when it's called "free will" and dressed up in religious garb?