[Fidelista]

Lan , Hate to tell you this , but Zelaya is no Marxist {Communist } !.
He is a rich capitalist , business man , and a member of the elite . His father was a right wing murderer involved in rightwing killings of progressives and religious . He was convicted and then set loose by the Govt .
Zelaya is a liberal , pure and simple .
Why he made change ? moved to left -- impossible to say . Maybe he developed a conscience? , or maybe just championed the people for political power--populist ? . At any rate , he is no "communist".
Some of the stuff you post is almost comical , but ...it sad because you actually believe it, or at least I believe you do . I do believe you are honest in your posts , even if they are way- way off base . You really do believe in a communist conspiracy -- a new "red scare" . Honduras developing Nukes ? LOL!!!!!
Duck and cover Lan !!! >f
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Zeleya is a Commie. It is not merely a stereotyped threat. It's a fact."

"I'm more concerned about a South American country becoming the next Iran, developing nukes, and threatening the US."


"Like it or not, there is no way in hell that anyone is going to convince me that Zelaya isn't a Communist who was attempting a coup of his own against the legitimate Honduran Democratic government."

[iltos]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Clipped from here


Like it or not, there is no way in hell that anyone is going to convince me that Zelaya isn't a Communist who was attempting a coup of his own against the legitimate Honduran Democratic government.

Obama is backing the wrong horse .... AGAIN.

you'd rather he back the aspirations of Unoamerica, huh? It's president and founder is
Alejandro Peña Esclusa...in light of Buffo's post about anti-semitic remarks that Zelaya is alleged to have made, you may be interested in learning a bit more about this man.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejand...C3%B1a_Esclusa translated from italian

Excluding Alejandro Peña (1954) is a Venezuelan politician, leader of the Fuerza Solidaria.

In 1998 he ran for president in Venezuela, collecting a total of 2424 votes equal to 0.04%.

Member of the sect "Tradition, Family and Property", pro-fascist movement, which allows entry only to those who prove to be of pure Aryan race.

fwiw, i cannot confirm this assertion of it's connections to nazisim, and the source is virulantly opposed to TFP and Pena....so take it with a grain of salt.

Pena has been a member of "Tradition, Family and Propery" since the 80's, according to
this journalist....during the 80s, the sect is said to have organized attacks

against John Paul II during his trip to Caracas November 13, 1984, and the President of the United States of America, Ronald Reagan, after which the sect was outlawed in Venezuela , France, Spain and Argentina, countries where it was most entrenched.

the sect felt that neither reagan nor the pope took a strong enough stand against communism

the TFP group is a right end of the Catholic spectrum
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/american-society

i'd imagine some of their politics you support, LAN: i can only hope that learning a bit more about Unoamerica and it's president will allow you to see that things are not as simple as they seem

Unoamerica's concerns are indeed noble

UnoAmerica will design economic programs to promote industrialization and development in our continent, in order to help solve the oldest and most serious problems in our region – poverty, illiteracy and even hunger -- as an antidote to totalitarianism.

Poverty and illiteracy are the main barriers to the consolidation of democracy and freedom in Latin America . There are no other real obstacles to development in a region full of resources.

We invite all democratic forces in Latin America to join this initiative. We invite them to work together to promote a better future in which freedom, social justice, solidarity and integration, and the rule of law will prevail.http://www.unoamerica.org/unoPAG/qui...php?idioma=ING

but in '07, Pena is quoted here as saying

"only the military is capable of guaranteeing democracy and all opposition to the leftist Latin American governments betray their electorate by preventing the military to regain control of the continent."

.....which to me, brings some of the other comments on the Unoamerica site into a different, less noble light

the site, as you might expect, it very critical of the socialist movement in latin america -as characterized by the Sao Paulo Forum- and the reasons for Unoamerica's support of Micheltti's military coup become clear when you read more of it's arguments.

To achieve their goals, the members of the Sao Paulo Forum do not resort to firing squads to eliminate their enemies, as was done in Cuba by Fidel Castro, the most prominent founding member of the FSP. They now use more modern and sophisticated methods. One basic process is through constitutional reforms that allow them to control all three branches of power, and to remain permanently in the Presidency. Elections are rigged and voting secrecy is, in practice, eliminated.

and yet, the FSP

noted, however, there is a marked contradiction between the fiery and quasi-revolutionary rethoric about "socialism of the XXIst Century" indulged in sometimes by many FSP's leaders, and the plain fact that the positions of power held by such leaders depend, on most cases, on their holding positions in governments which have emerged through the electoral road[6]

so it not nearly so clear that what Unoamerica bases its activities on is a universal reality among leftist governements in the region.
Unoamerica does assert this, and it is the truth

The FSP has a transnational project that disregards national borders or sovereignty. To achieve their goals, FSP members intervene in the internal affairs of other countries, funding candidates of their liking, supplying military equipment, and even making decisions on internal conflicts using related organizations such as the Union of South American Nations (UNASUR). Democratic political and social forces, on the other hand, have so-far limited their action to their own national territory.

then again, if you read this, it's clear that there isn't some sort of "communist conspriacy" at work, but an ongoing and sometimes heated debate among the governements of latin america to find a place in the political and economic world of the 21st century...a place that is determined by the leaders of latin america, and the people who vote for them, not by outside intervention.

which has gotta make you wonder about Pena's belief that the military is the only way to bring democracy and freedom to the region.....it has been tried by latin american militaries and american foreign policy for a century....is it any wonder that many of the leftist governments there feel

None of our countries will be able to triumph on its own: the socialist revolution must spread throughout all of Latin America

and that some feel

The Sao Paulo Forum should ratify its rejection of intervention and aggression against the countries of Latin Americahttp://links.org.au/node/495

?

you reap what you sow.
Unoamerica's desire to sow more of the same will not reap anything different....if you are really worried about a nuke in latin america, it's worth considering.....especially considering the sources of money down there.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by Fidelista

Anybody follow this ? . I don't know if still in effect , but it speaks to what parts of constitution are important , and to who . >f...............

It didn't last long, thankfully, as international pressure bore heavily.
Meanwhile:

Honduras' de facto leaders Monday officially lifted rights curbs to boost campaigning for November elections, as deposed President Manuel Zelaya began a fifth week in the Brazilian embassy.The regime behind the June 28 coup hopes to prevent Zelaya's return to office before the elections -- the main sticking point in talks on the crisis that has polarized the impoverished Central American nation.
International observers, including key backer the United States, have suggested they will not recognize the November 29 presidential polls if Zelaya fails to return to office first.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...Kq7uwhDaifjz1Q

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by iltos

you'd rather he back the aspirations of Unoamerica, huh? It's president and founder is
Alejandro Peña Esclusa...in light of Buffo's post about anti-semitic remarks that Zelaya is alleged to have made, you may be interested in learning a bit more about this man.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejand...C3%B1a_Esclusa translated from italian



fwiw, i cannot confirm this assertion of it's connections to nazisim, and the source is virulantly opposed to TFP and Pena....so take it with a grain of salt.

Pena has been a member of "Tradition, Family and Propery" since the 80's, according to
this journalist....during the 80s, the sect is said to have organized attacks


the sect felt that neither reagan nor the pope took a strong enough stand against communism

the TFP group is a right end of the Catholic spectrum
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/american-society

i'd imagine some of their politics you support, LAN: i can only hope that learning a bit more about Unoamerica and it's president will allow you to see that things are not as simple as they seem

Unoamerica's concerns are indeed noble


but in '07, Pena is quoted here as saying

.....which to me, brings some of the other comments on the Unoamerica site into a different, less noble light

the site, as you might expect, it very critical of the socialist movement in latin america -as characterized by the Sao Paulo Forum- and the reasons for Unoamerica's support of Micheltti's military coup become clear when you read more of it's arguments.

and yet, the FSP

so it not nearly so clear that what Unoamerica bases its activities on is a universal reality among leftist governements in the region.
Unoamerica does assert this, and it is the truth

then again, if you read this, it's clear that there isn't some sort of "communist conspriacy" at work, but an ongoing and sometimes heated debate among the governements of latin america to find a place in the political and economic world of the 21st century...a place that is determined by the leaders of latin america, and the people who vote for them, not by outside intervention.

which has gotta make you wonder about Pena's belief that the military is the only way to bring democracy and freedom to the region.....it has been tried by latin american militaries and american foreign policy for a century....is it any wonder that many of the leftist governments there feel and that some feel
?

you reap what you sow.
Unoamerica's desire to sow more of the same will not reap anything different....if you are really worried about a nuke in latin america, it's worth considering.....especially considering the sources of money down there.

Nice.

Peña has indeed been a member of "Familia, Tradición y Propiedad" and they're indeed as fascist as you can get. There's no grain of salt needed and since my Italian is very rusty all I need to do is consult the local press here.

"Family, Tradition and Property" (they put the most important factor last) is one of those silly cults that has spread itself thru the founding of international "dependencias", notably "Young Canadians for a Christian Civilization" (it makes it easier to look them up since their publications or publications on them are in English).

But in whichever country you come across them, they out-catholicize the Catholics and I think they'd like to re-instate the Inquisition and have the Pope be the first subjected to it.

LAN, I recall you to be devoutly anti-catholic so are you quoting these jerks because they are equally so (which, of course, they are)?

¿Quién maneja a Alejandro Peña Esclusa, el neofascista venezolano que está de gira desde hace meses por Europa y América? En su tierra no representa a nadie, es un antisemita y un golpista

http://www.tlaxcala.es/pp.asp?reference=2244&lg=es

You'll have to brush up your Spanish but the bolded part means that in his country he amounts to nothing. Certain interested parties in Italy love people like him though, which is why people like him love going there.

Oh, one more ( I gotta get back out of this c & p habit):

Recapitulemos: Alejandro Peña Esclusa es un oscuro personaje de la derecha neofascista latinoamericana. Tan oscuro que, al presentarse a las elecciones obtuvo 2.424 votos, el 0,04%. Menos mal, siendo como es portavoz de una organización antisemita y que se le vincula con el líder histórico del fascismo (atlantista) brasileño Plinio Correa de Oliveira, jefe de la secta “Tradición, Familia y Propiedad”, figura insigne y punto de referencia de las dictaduras latinoamericanas de los años 70. Peña Esclusa, gracias precisamente a esas amistades, entró en contacto con los servicios estadounidenses y participó en el golpe de estado contra Chávez el 11 de abril de 2002. Hoy lidera una organización minúscula, Fuerza Solidaria, que apunta manifiestamente a la instauración de nuevas dictaduras militares en América Latina: “No creemos en soluciones democráticas”. Aunque actualmente pretende metas más altas, sus socios europeos son la Falange Española y Forza Nuova en Italia.

In bold: "we do not believe in democratic solutions".

Lovely

[iltos]

bumpity bump...
this was a far more interesting discussion than the same old same old of american political pugilistics.

i'm interested in hearing LAN's response to the argument against Unoamerica.

[LANMaster]

*PERK! *

I was not advocating UNOAmerica in the least.
I was merely selfishly using their data to prove that Zeleya is indeed a Communist.

Mr. Spinster

[TooBad]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

*PERK! *

I was not advocating UNOAmerica in the least.
I was merely selfishly using their data to prove that Zeleya is indeed a Communist.

Mr. Spinster

According to Fidelista, there are no communists anymore, he has denied every one of them and I guess we should just accept his authority on the subject and go to our rooms without supper.

[LANMaster]

Just because Zeleya used Capitalism to make his fortune DOES NOT MEAN that he is not foisting Communism upon the citizens of Honduras.

When will these Liberals understand that it is the Communists that are the real crooks in government.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

*PERK! *

I was not advocating UNOAmerica in the least.
I was merely selfishly using their data to prove that Zeleya is indeed a Communist.

Mr. Spinster

data?
in your post, kincaid offered no data....he just allowed pena to express his opinions about latin america, the oas, and obama....

so....if that's data, what do make of pena's article from unoamerica that kincaid referenced, and its constant admission that these dirty commie governments he sees everywhere were -for the most part- the results of democratic elections?

and the fact that he claims -for some- that the elections "were forced" on the people.

doesn't this "data" suggest to you that pena is, in fact, just what his detractors claim?....an oddball who sees marxism as some world wide conpiracy with very nearly "supreme being" powers of organization and distribution and mind control, led by a few "priests of propaganda" that easily fool populations who -must, if this "data" is true- be too POOR and too STUPID to know what they're doing when they vote?

and doesn't this lend credance to the onimous nature of the quotes attributed to him, about the positive aspects of "freedom through military control"?

i swear, LAN, if this discussion was about global warming, you'd be siding with zelaya



unoamerica just says what you want to hear.....but that ain't "data"

[iltos]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Just because Zeleya used Capitalism to make his fortune DOES NOT MEAN that he is not foisting Communism upon the citizens of Honduras.

When will these Liberals understand that it is the Communists that are the real crooks in government.

hehehe....probably when conservatives concede that captialists are happy in any political environment.