[iltos]

Originally Posted by TooBad

they have turned "freedom of religion" into freedom from religion......Get the gist??

we may disagree on nuance, but as to intent, i both see and agree with most of what you're saying.....except for this religion thing above.
seems like a word game to me

what do see "freedom of religion" as meaning?

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by iltos

we may disagree on nuance, but as to intent, i both see and agree with most of what you're saying.....except for this religion thing above.
seems like a word game to me

what do see "freedom of religion" as meaning?

.......bit like "freedom of speech" meaning the legal compulsion of people to speak, i.e. silence will not be tolerated?

Most people don't understand that freedom of religion not only involves the right to practice freely but also the right to not practice. Generally speaking (I'm not telling you that).

[TooBad]

Originally Posted by iltos

we may disagree on nuance, but as to intent, i both see and agree with most of what you're saying.....except for this religion thing above.
seems like a word game to me

what do see "freedom of religion" as meaning?

You are free to practice whichever "religion" you choose, but you are not free to deny me to practice my religion, even on government property. That does not "establish" a religion. The establishment clause was clearly meant that one demomination would not be sanctioned by the Federal government, there were States at the time of ratification that had State sanctioned religions and they were not unConstitutional.

Today the "atheist" religion, and it is a religion, has declared war on all other religions (with the notible exception of Islam) to remove religion from all public places. They have almost completely succeeded in establishing atheism as the official religion.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by TooBad

You are free to practice whichever "religion" you choose, but you are not free to deny me to practice my religion, even on government property. That does not "establish" a religion. The establishment clause was clearly meant that one demomination would not be sanctioned by the Federal government, there were States at the time of ratification that had State sanctioned religions and they were not unConstitutional.

Today the "atheist" religion, and it is a religion, has declared war on all other religions (with the notible exception of Islam) to remove religion from all public places. They have almost completely succeeded in establishing atheism as the official religion.

Enlighten me please (I haven't been to the States in decades) as to where and how practice Islam is allowed in public places where the practice of any Christian denomination is not? Last time I was stateside maybe Islam wasn't as pronounced as today.

Also how does atheism get to be official religion? Is the preaching of godlessness in public places allowed?

[thingamajig]

I'm thinking seriously of joining the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I'm not sure how this thread turned toward religion but I have to again agree with Buff. We have a freedom from religion. The constitution is written to apply to the government and its institutions. I can put a sign in my yard preaching my faith but a government funded institution cannot.

There was a big case in Alabama not long ago where a highly ranked judge was forced to remove a big marble display of the ten commandments from the courthouse. I would argue also that "in god we trust" should be taken off of our currency and a church should be tax exempt only if it satisfies the requirements of any other non-profit organization.

Atheism is not a religion so stating it as such is absurd. However, it is often a cause as many atheists are humanists and object to church policy and teachings. Activism is not the same as faith.

[LANMaster]

It's funny. The only religion which it seems okay to criticize today is Christianity.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

It's funny. The only religion which it seems okay to criticize today is Christianity.

Wait til you hear me on Shintoism

[4EverRight]

Well, Senator Snowe did me in today. She has made the health care proposal a bi-partisan package. Am I ever disappointed.

You see, I have been setting up a company poised to make it big when we conservatives kill health care for almost all Americans.

My company will go to your community and solicit money to assist you in paying your health care related bills. I have designed a fail safe program that will make me a lot of money.

My company, for a small percentage of the take, will go in and set up the, "community benefit" for so and so. We have targeted most if not all the people that tend to give money to those unfortunate people that cannot afford to pay for health care. We provide the sick person with a list of options that we will set in motion to gain the money to get them the medical care they so desperitly need.

We will plaster all the banks, grocery stores and Walmarts with the flyers intended to bring the common folk to the chicken wing ding benefit.

But Snowe came along. Now this thing is bi-partisan. That gives if a chance of passage.

I had hopes of setting up franchises. You know, like Burger King. For a modest fee I would provide you the opportunity to make some money off of your local sick people. I would provide you everything you need, including flyers, to advertise a benefit. In fact, I have a bunch of country western bands ready to show up in your town to play for such benefits.

But no....American ingenuity is being hampered by this health care reform thing.

Please write your congressmen and demand that they not support health care for people. Let them know that we want to be asked to provide charitable contributions to our own sick people.

Join me in taking the conservative approach. WE will help our own. WE do not need government interference in our lives.

[thingamajig]

The vote from the finance committee doesn't include a public option and the legislation will continue to evolve. Even if there are disagreements on the details, the need for reform is apparent.

Since when have we helped our own in a meaningful way? I don't think your business model will make any money or help many. But a fund raiser for providing aid to the poor sounds like a great idea. Helping a few is better than helping nobody but the shareholders and executives of the industry. What are you waiting on?

As for the topic of this thread, Snowe had the courage to make a decision and break from partisan politics as usual in order to move the process along. From her words paraphrased, she wanted to move forward but her yes vote today doesn't mean she'll give a yes vote tomorrow as the bill matures. I respect that as it gets the bill out of committee and onto the floor to live or die.

[wacor]

Her vote meant nothing. It was going out of committee anyway wasn't it?

I really don't know why she and a few others don't do a Specter and leave the party. This is not bi partisan it is bull crap. Just a side show.

We need reform. Tell me how this boon doggle is gonna reform anything. It is a joke to go thru all this and not even have universal coverage. I really don't get what this accomplishes other than to raise costs and give the govt more control over the industry.

Both sides are so full of baloney nobody knows what to believe. You get the horror stories of people denied coverage but never the full story about why.

Blah

[TooBad]

Originally Posted by buffoon

Enlighten me please (I haven't been to the States in decades) as to where and how practice Islam is allowed in public places where the practice of any Christian denomination is not? Last time I was stateside maybe Islam wasn't as pronounced as today.

Also how does atheism get to be official religion? Is the preaching of godlessness in public places allowed?

There are public schools where they have provided foot baths for Muslims to use for prayer, but praying to Christ is against school policy.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-schools_N.htm

The acts of denying the Ten Commandments in courts and other official buildings, mostly State government BTW, is an act of demanding the removal of Freedom of religion and is preaching of godlessness in public. BTW, the Ten Commandments are prominently displayed in our Supreme Court.

[thingamajig]

Originally Posted by wacor

Her vote meant nothing. It was going out of committee anyway wasn't it?

Yep, that was all that vote was about.

Originally Posted by wacor

I really don't know why she and a few others don't do a Specter and leave the party. This is not bi partisan it is bull crap. Just a side show.

You claim to be libertarian but then complain if a Republican crosses the aisle. You don't complain if democrats vote with the republicans.

Do you favor partisanship over individual votes? There must not be any role to be played for the pesky independent in your eyes.

Originally Posted by wacor

We need reform. Tell me how this boon doggle is gonna reform anything. It is a joke to go thru all this and not even have universal coverage. I really don't get what this accomplishes other than to raise costs and give the govt more control over the industry.

Wow, and even the senate doesn't have a final version. Can your crystal ball give me the winning numbers of the power ball lottery that I can pick up this weekend in GA?

I've heard a talk about a "trigger" plan for the public option and some democrats claim there won't be a bill without it. The choice between public and private was the initial goal but I agree that the bill isn't much without it. If the public ran an Insurance exchange, than what does a conservative have to fear - that the private option will be more competitive?

Originally Posted by wacor

Both sides are so full of baloney nobody knows what to believe. You get the horror stories of people denied coverage but never the full story about why.

That's only because you don't read that part of the news. Your mind shuts out the details and I don't blame you. You must disassociate when such things are aired. If both parties are full of baloney but you aren't, what are you full of? An expletive comes to mind.

[wacor]

Thingy you come up with the strangest stuff. Snowe is not a conservative so why does she pretend she is a republican was my point.

I don't have a crystal ball but I do know what is bs when I see it. Just because there is no final version does not mean there is nothing to judge. Clearly this is going to be a major expense. Oh wait I forgot they are gonna take away 500 million or whatever from medicare or medicaid and then find all kind of waste to make it.

Do you agree with their refusing to put tort reform of any kind in the bill? It is not there and will not be there. Unless you want to claim they left it out as a bargaining chip. Which would be laughable since the democrats are always against tort reform and they will not need it in the bill to get it to pass.

[thingamajig]

There are changes I would like to see that we aren't going to get in this bill. Tort reform is one. I thought the house version was a good start but have no idea what the Senate is doing with this thing other than giving us a headache. The money pouring in from the insurance and drug company lobbies doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about it though. I do believe that the system is headed for a crash and doing nothing doesn't appeal to me either.

The American people deserve better than what they are getting. Small employers should be able to provide insurance and remain in business. The working poor need health care. Do we disagree on these two points?

[wacor]

Originally Posted by thingamajig

The American people deserve better than what they are getting. Small employers should be able to provide insurance and remain in business. The working poor need health care. Do we disagree on these two points?

I don't disagree but this plan is not the answer.

It has a lot of the looks of the Massachucetts plan. People should be able to have the flexibility to get the plan they want for their needs. If somebody wants to get a catastrophic plan they should be able to. In MA they mandate everybody be covered and the max deductible is $2k. Stoner provided a link to an example where an older couple nearing retirement had a $2.5k deductible because their premium was much cheaper. It was a risk they could afford to take much like having a high premium on a car where if you do not have an accident you save a lot. For most years you will not need the insurance so you make out in the long run. This couple now is fined $1k so they paid the fine as it was cheaper than getting a plan with the lower deductible. This is nothing but a money grab by the state. IMO