[iltos]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/ed...scipline.html?

Charles P. Ewing, a professor of law and psychology at the University at Buffalo Law School who has written about school safety issues, said he favored a strict zero-tolerance approach.

“There are still serious threats every day in schools,” Dr. Ewing said, adding that giving school officials discretion holds the potential for discrimination and requires the kind of threat assessments that only law enforcement is equipped to make.

i don't doubt that this is true....but it works both ways....how would law enforcement have assessed an incident like this?

....a third-grade girl was expelled for a year because her grandmother had sent a birthday cake to school, along with a knife to cut it. The teacher called the principal — but not before using the knife to cut and serve the cake.

there is a growing number of "threats" like this one -all ending in disciplinary action without review as part of our national concern stemming from events like the columbine massacre.

we want our kids safe, and administrations that adopt a zero tolerance policy can claim that they've answered both that concern, and Dr. Ewing's concern wrt discrimination.

Education experts say that zero-tolerance policies initially allowed authorities more leeway in punishing students, but were applied in a discriminatory fashion. Many studies indicate that African-Americans were several times more likely to be suspended or expelled than other students for the same offenses.

here's one of those studies

But the feds argue that zero tolerance is a good thing

And yet, federal studies by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and another by the Department of Justice show that the rate of school-related homicides and nonfatal violence has fallen over most of the past decade.

always two sides, tho

Educational experts say the decline is less a result of zero-tolerance policies than of other programs like peer mediation, student support groups and adult mentorships, as well as an overall decrease in all forms of crime.

to me, the entire issue asks (again) what is the function of education?....most kids spend a good portion of their waking lives on campus....like it or not, human interaction and socialization are things that are learned there, in addition to the three R's

imo, zero tolerance is just part of the attempt to deny the truth of that.

thoughts?

[Drabdr]

Oh, yea, I have thoughts!! They're not worth much. , but I have them.
(good morning to ya, BTW).

I have a huge problem with Zero Tolerance primarily because in what I have seen, there is little/no clarity in the rules/guidelines prior to any occurrence. In the times my kids have been in trouble.. well, let me explain that first.

They're in 5th and 7th. They have had writeups and referrals. They're pretty good kids, but the rules, well, that's what I will get to. The punishment? No recess, and they sit by themselves at lunch. Great punishment; take away their only time to talk, exercise, and interact.

Now, the rules were all horribly subjective, and somewhat on the fly. Now... don't get me wrong. I'm old school, and I got the teacher's back, to an extent. But the keywords are "Zero Tolerance", first strike you're out. The kids get horribly frustrated not in as much as they got in trouble, but that they are in trouble for confusing/subjective rules and regulations. There is a difference for being punished for rules you clearly understand, and those you don't.

The latest is that she got a "referral" to the principal for three tardies. She was tardy because she had to go to the bathroom (legit bathroom needs). When asked why she does not go during class, she says the teacher gets mad. Does a 13 year old girl need that additional stress in her life? I think she has enough already.

My point is this: make sure rules are very, very clear, before taking such Draconian enforcement strategies.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Drabdr

Oh, yea, I have thoughts!! They're not worth much. , but I have them.
(good morning to ya, BTW).

I have a huge problem with Zero Tolerance primarily because in what I have seen, there is little/no clarity in the rules/guidelines prior to any occurrence. In the times my kids have been in trouble.. well, let me explain that first.

They're in 5th and 7th. They have had writeups and referrals. They're pretty good kids, but the rules, well, that's what I will get to. The punishment? No recess, and they sit by themselves at lunch. Great punishment; take away their only time to talk, exercise, and interact.

Now, the rules were all horribly subjective, and somewhat on the fly. Now... don't get me wrong. I'm old school, and I got the teacher's back, to an extent. But the keywords are "Zero Tolerance", first strike you're out. The kids get horribly frustrated not in as much as they got in trouble, but that they are in trouble for confusing/subjective rules and regulations. There is a difference for being punished for rules you clearly understand, and those you don't.

The latest is that she got a "referral" to the principal for three tardies. She was tardy because she had to go to the bathroom (legit bathroom needs). When asked why she does not go during class, she says the teacher gets mad. Does a 13 year old girl need that additional stress in her life? I think she has enough already.

My point is this: make sure rules are very, very clear, before taking such Draconian enforcement strategies.

and that's part of it, imo.....zero tolerance is easy, like anything that's made black and white.....and so it's "cost effective" too, both in terms of less staff (or staff time) set aside to look at the gray area, and more time available for teaching academics.

like any factory enviroment exception processing is disruptive to the goal of the assembly line....to complete as many "units" as possible.

[wacor]

zero tolerance is the same principle used in other rules and regulations by those the govern in the last 40 years.

It follows along the line of we have a problem and while it is not widespread by golly we are going to eliminate the problem by throwing the blanket over everybody. Only problem is the issue at hand does not get eliminated or at times even controlled. All that the cost of losing our liberties bit by bit

Can't get judges to do their job then go with mandatory sentencing

Underage kids drinking. Zero tolerance. To the point of even being able to force breath tests at parties without cause.

kids bringing weapons to school. No tolerance so you have kids getting in trouble for innocent mistakes and or the authority turning something into a weapon to make sure they can punish

Drunk drivers. Lower the drinking limit so people hardly been drinking are nailed for drunk driving. Meanwhile the hard core drunks like that guy that rear ended me mid afternoon is out on the loose to do that when he has been convicted a half dozen times.

Zero tolerance in school for drugs to the extent even decongestants are not allowed.

I could go on and on with examples of this kind of insanity.