[thingamajig]

Originally Posted by TRS-80 vet

There is no new thing under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 1:9.

That's an ironic passage to be coming from the Old Testament.

[thingamajig]

Originally Posted by TooBad

They seem to think that they can remove the PFM from computer tech work, but as long as computers are designed and work the way they do, those that have the "touch" will be needed and no process can explain how it works.

But this is tied to the complexity of the machine. Consider a job for which we don't yet have robotics like trimming a piece of poultry as it rolls past on the line of a meat processing plant or sewing the seam in clothing item. For large farms it might be the guys who just go out and pick the crop who have not played a role in growing the tree. We will always have assembly lines for many things. The tasks that can be automated will be the jobs no longer needed.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by thingamajig

I can empathize with this in that any really significant ideas can be stifled whenever thought production becomes incestuous.....
It is sold to be of value by those who are alone qualified to make the assessment or educated toward a specific biased view.

i do believe you've just presented a pretty concise definition of social engineering.

I see this as a trap that can result from a free open market capitalism through mass marketing, a corporate monopoly, a government program, a purely socialistic system, a political party or ideology, over-management where the process becomes more important than the product, and obviously from a closed partitioning in society regardless of its source.

and.....wha-la.....you are set down in the middle of the "inquiry"....in a society founded on the precepts of individual freedom, which in turn is dependant on the ability of the individual to utilize his/her cognitive skills to produce their own psychic and pragmatic sense of value, the dangers of "mass" anything must be addressed, imo, from the get go -i.e., within the educational system- the failure to do so is a tacit acceptance of the "economic efficiencies" that create the dangers in an effort to control costs (increase profits), creating the final camoflage to cover the pit of quicksand -speaking from the pov of "indivdual freedom"

in effect, replacing the effort of obtaining individual freedom (and hence, it's "value") with an illusion maintained by the wonders of consumerism and media.....what i'd say you are referring to as a "closed partition" within society.

I think mindless work might be inevitable to many but treasured by others who are able to take pride in their own part of the process.

i think you've been watching too many Saturn commericals ....in this downturn, i've noticed them as the newest version of the trend toward "the superbig corportation is your friend....a family, just like yours" type of commerical.....a presentation of the arguement that the corporate environment provides a place where the value of individual work is celebrated and important....undeniable so, from the corporate standpoint (somebody has got to stand there and make sure the spot welders are working correctly)......the question is the value percieved by other end of the spectrum....by the individual who's allowed to sit down 5 minutes of every hour

that it comes to us in the form of a commercial is noteworthy, imo

Perhaps one thing working against that is the mass media's celebration of the trappings of wealth and adventure. We tend to choose the wrong role models in sports, performing artists, and the excessively wealthy. The wealthy protect their piece of the pie and the poor protect their heroes. We aspire too much to win the lottery.

it could be argued that these icons are a part of the "inquiry".....a search for the value -not of work, because we ain't feelin that- but of it's idealized "product"......wealth -something which has become independant -in the mind's eye of society- of cognitive skills.

I'm not sure what to the think of the causal relationship being placed between scientific management and disconnect between our work and our product. I would think a well managed organization would take measures to alleviate the risk of complacency in its workers. An organization that is top heavy will eventually tip over.

on this, my personal jury is still out....the 21st century call for innovation and creativity and teamwork in the business world supports your assertion, imo. Crawford does, however, make the arguement that is just another tool of "scientific management"....reframing the dissection of process into concepts that encourage participation in something that has changed in name only.

Nor do I have a sense of it progressing system-wide. To the extent that it is, then I can only find solution for the worker to change jobs (given there are opportunities) or in those weekends and perhaps a little more vacation time with a lot less time-wasting activities like sitting in front of the tube.

agreed....the book is written as the personal inquiry of an individual....he offers no "plan" for systemic revolution.....because the truth is that there aren't any.

Often outside consultants are hired (that don't have a horse in the race) to design an unbiased test to find problems in production. Shutting down to do any troubleshooting is not taken lightly due to the expense of the lost production. Statisticians and the skills of designing experiments are valued in this arena.

these are "efficency experts" thingy...consultants who are advocates for and work to support the current system.....i was thinking of the cable/phone guy -the blue collar worker who can identify and resolve a unique problem with individual service in the field....that these, too, are increasingly "outsourced" to independant contractors -"tradesman"- only speaks to what is left of the "plenty of room", imo.

I guess I'm following some of the arguments in that too much of any ism or ist is not healthy (?)

you too smart not to be able to follow it

A static trend? You lost me on this part.

yeah...my sense of metaphor got in the way
roughly, what i referred to a "trend static in its direction" was meant to identify the direction of an unchanging (unchangeable) trend towards an ever smaller "plenty of room" scenario .....it's multidimensional aspects are the cultural "masses": media, consumerism, and education.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by thingamajig

But this is tied to the complexity of the machine. Consider a job for which we don't yet have robotics like trimming a piece of poultry as it rolls past on the line of a meat processing plant or sewing the seam in clothing item. For large farms it might be the guys who just go out and pick the crop who have not played a role in growing the tree. We will always have assembly lines for many things. The tasks that can be automated will be the jobs no longer needed.

and the future that was presented in the dawn of automation was the increase in "leisure time" for the poor, overworked factory guy....something that was identified by Velben as a sign of wealth and success

thing is, the poor overworked factory guy -in the beginning, at least....before scientific management became the norm- was at least semi-skilled labor....much of it immigrant labor.....
set aside the working conditions of late 19th, early 20th century factories, for a moment.... and you are left with a bunch of people who's work presented to them some sense of value, because it required cognition related to the task.....as "efficency" worked its way into the production equation -human labor moved toward the "mechanization" of effort, stripping away the need for a cognitive skill set

it was somewhere in that time line that "working conditions" became a concern of government.....it's contribution to the efficency of the work place.

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by wacor

I would have a headache getting thru that book

It's why I didn't send it to you....that and it didn't have any pictures.

[wacor]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

It's why I didn't send it to you....that and it didn't have any pictures.

I stated long ago I hate to read.

I do like pictures though

Anything where you have to read each paragraph twice to get the gist of it goes in the trash.

I blame it on an aversion to the bible at a young age

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by iltos

....as "efficency" worked its way into the production equation -human labor moved toward the "mechanization" of effort, stripping away the need for a cognitive skill set

it was somewhere in that time line that "working conditions" became a concern of government.....it's contribution to the efficency of the work place.

Lord you guys write like you are getting paid by the hour.

Let me put it in terms that Wacor can understand (lowest common denominator as it were ) Management has grown, workers have been marginalized and "process" has become king. There was a time when upper management knew how to do the line workers job. The CEO started in the mail room and worked his way to the top or near the top. You don't see that anymore. Now you have Harvard MBAs/CPAs who understand business "processes" to increase efficiency, reduce costs and increase profit as well as production but, from a mechanical standpoint have a hard time finding their butt with both hands. The Harvard man produces nothing tangible other than efficiency. This whole "processes" has created a new level of management, those that work in a support position in that they are not directly involved in production but their services are necessary to support the business and (yes) comply with governmental regulation.

Therein lies the disconnect between a sense of accomplishment afforded by the "trade" jobs and those of the white and pink collar jobs.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

Lord you guys write like you are getting paid by the hour.

i'm a reasonably good typist, thanks to the internet....so i get paid by the word

Let me put it in terms that Wacor can understand (lowest common denominator as it were ) Management has grown, workers have been marginalized and "process" has become king. There was a time when upper management knew how to do the line workers job. The CEO started in the mail room and worked his way to the top or near the top. You don't see that anymore. Now you have Harvard MBAs/CPAs who understand business "processes" to increase efficiency, reduce costs and increase profit as well as production but, from a mechanical standpoint have a hard time finding their butt with both hands. The Harvard man produces nothing tangible other than efficiency. This whole "processes" has created a new level of management, those that work in a support position in that they are not directly involved in production but their services are necessary to support the business and (yes) comply with governmental regulation.

there you go.....simple and to the point
but i'm realizing -after the thing about governement's intervention in workplace conditions -that unions, too, are partners in this.

[ekim68]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

It's why I didn't send it to you....that and it didn't have any pictures.

[TooBad]

Originally Posted by thingamajig

But this is tied to the complexity of the machine. Consider a job for which we don't yet have robotics like trimming a piece of poultry as it rolls past on the line of a meat processing plant or sewing the seam in clothing item. For large farms it might be the guys who just go out and pick the crop who have not played a role in growing the tree. We will always have assembly lines for many things. The tasks that can be automated will be the jobs no longer needed.

Sorry, but complexity does not explain why the same set of steps does not work for one person and the exact same steps work for another on the same machine. I have seen this too many times to believe that you can simply write down the steps required to "fix" a computer and have them work every time in every situation. They will work 80-90% of the time, but there is nothing the steps can do about the times it just takes the "right" person performing the steps.

[thingamajig]

Originally Posted by TooBad

Sorry, but complexity does not explain why the same set of steps does not work for one person and the exact same steps work for another on the same machine. I have seen this too many times to believe that you can simply write down the steps required to "fix" a computer and have them work every time in every situation. They will work 80-90% of the time, but there is nothing the steps can do about the times it just takes the "right" person performing the steps.

You must be joking. Voodoo magic in computer repair.

[rob.rice]

a warning from the bible has been forgotten
the warning is
starving people WILL sell themselves and there children in to slavery
some common scene has also been forgotten
no matter what you invest in you will need a market for it to make money

the meaning of class warfare has also changed
the old meaning was tacking from the rich to give to the poor
today class warfare is tacking from the not rich to give to the super rich

[thingamajig]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

Lord you guys write like you are getting paid by the hour.

Getting paid by the hour marginalizes the effort of the writer.

Originally Posted by iltos

i'm a reasonably good typist, thanks to the internet....so i get paid by the word

You are getting paid!?!?!

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by iltos

ithere you go.....simple and to the point
but i'm realizing -after the thing about governement's intervention in workplace conditions -that unions, too, are partners in this.

Unions are businesses too, with the same management pressures and MBAs yada yada etc etc. You got your proverbial three legged stool.....management, labor and government. And we all know how stable a three legged stool can be.

[Drabdr]

Originally Posted by thingamajig

That's an ironic passage to be coming from the Old Testament.

But it's true.