[valis]

well, it's about that time again. I've not been on a good rant in several months, and the cat is beginning to look nervous, so I reckon I should probably pony up something good.

Reckon I'll choose music. I choose this because a; I'm an excellent music critic (everything I like is cool, everything else sucks), and b; I started the damn thread.

Was channel surfing last night after the Yanks got smoked by the Phillies, and came across VH1 classic playing Queens fantabulous show at Wembley in '83. Wished I could have been there; IMO, Freddie Mercury is the definitive front man for ALL of music, and yes, that does include Laurence Welk and his bubbles.

Unfortunately, I was unable to attend that show, as I was attending another seminal show, with another extraordinarily capable frontman (not in Mercury's class, however; that class consists of one); that concert being U2 at Red Rocks when they filmed 'Under A Blood Red Sky'. To this day, that remains the best concert I've ever seen, and I've seen a good sized pile of them.

I have not seen the Stones, and I will never see the Stones. The reason for this is simple; right now, the only reason they are cool is that they are an integral part of the boomer populace, and that populace still wants to think that they can rock as hard as ever, providing that the show isn't too loud and they get home at a reasonable hour. Say around 8.

But I do give it up for the Stones, for they were THE band that brought blues (as in the 'song by the colored folk' blues) into the mainstream to stay. Without the Stones, I cannot even begin to fathom where music would be today. The Clash is one of my very favorite bands, and I'd say that 'London Calling' is one of the most influential albums ever made, but had the Stones not paved the way with their bluesy 'Exile on Main Street', I honestly don't think that album (London Calling, that is), would ever have been made.

A year or so ago, a few of us pundits here at TSG decided that we were going to sit down and submit lists of our top 100 bands. I would then weight them in popularity in a spreadsheet with all of our picks, and drop the bottom 25, and do it again. Repeat until you got down to 10, and then we were going to make a poll and put those 10 bands up there and say 'we've narrowed it down to these top 10 bands, you guys vote on who's the best'. Reason it never came to fruition was very, very simple. One of the members realized that there were no black blues bands on there, and without that, you don't have rock and roll today. No Zep, no AC/DC, no Def Lep, and certainly no Pearl Jam or Social D or even Johnny Cash and Waylon Jennings. Those guys would not have been there had it not been for the original players of the blues, and we realized that our 'experiment' was flawed at it's very foundation, and tanked it.

This is not to say that we didn't know about the impact the early blues players had; of course not. We just didn't have as many Blind Lemon Jefferson albums as we did, say, Jefferson Airplane albums. And so, being the humans that we are, we looked into our collections and our memories of concerts that moved us, and chose from there. And even though none of us were really old enough to have lived through the Golden Age of Blues, we still knew about Muddy Waters and Bo Diddley. Hell, I named my cat Bo, and it wasn't after Jackson.

Where I'm going with this, I dunno. Just needed a rant. After watching that Queen concert last night, I'm yet again utterly depressed with the path that music has taken. I know, I know; the stuff we loved in our prime is the stuff we'll stick to forever, but I still valiantly attempt to listen to the radio on occasion, and I'll hear the new, raw, alternative station playing a song older than the new Tom Petty hit on the classic rock station, and that strikes me as silly. An alternative station that touts itself on the 'new rock label' playing Nirvana from 18 years ago, and the classic rock station playing Tom Petty from 10 years ago. Irony.

As an interesting aside, out of the four current 'major' radio venues (classic rock, alternative, heavy metal, and retro), I've only heard one band on all 4 stations; U2. Heard Boston on 3 of them, but only U2 on all four. AND we went to see Bono and crew a couple weeks ago; band called Muse opened up for them, and they most definitely gave me hope for the future of music.

So I dunno; chances are high that I merely used to be with it, and now what 'it' is is unknown and scary to me, but I'm going to dig my heels in here; nothing has really moved me, with the exception of quite literally a handful of bands (I'll give you the examples if you want) since about 1990 or so.

So what YOUR input? Who do YOU see as the 'most influential' band out there? That's always a toughie to answer. The cop out answer is the Beatles, of course; again, no blues, no Beatles. Or at least a significantly different version of them. Who's the best front man? Do the Stones get enough street cred for being the boys who tied blues to rock and roll? (no, even though I detest them.) Where does Dire Straits fit into all this? Did you know Mark Knopfler has a dino named after him? More imporantaly, do you care?

What is country and western music? My answer to that is simple; Hank Williams is, and Hank Williams Jr ain't. And before you go off about me not knowing my music, I grew up on Woody Guthrie, Flatt and Scruggs, and Willie and the boys.

An album a lot of people consistently overlook is Pet Sounds, by Brian Wilson. I guess it was performed by the Beach Boys, but it most definitely was written by Master Wilson, with a specific aim in mind; the best pop album ever.

And in my mind, he hit it. After all, the two dudes who wrote what is usually acclaimed as the greatest pop album of all time, Lennon and McCartney, are both on record stating that had there not been a Pet Sounds, there would not have been a Sgt. Pepper. If they say it's better, I'm going to have to agree with them.

Slack, I know you're going to pound me for that one.

[Drabdr]

Why CV for this thread?? Anyway, hope the boy and family are doing good.

I think you started doing this, but there are going to have to be a lot of disclaimers. I mean, what exactly are we talking about?

If you are talking influential, Eddie Arnold is big. When Willie Nelson says he can't hold a candle to Mabell Carter, that says something.

If you are talking across generations, The Beatles are there. There music and lyrics were so far ahead of their time. And... when you crack open the Anthologies, they could actually sing.

Another band way way ahead of their time... Led Zeppelin. Many of their songs you could play on a diddy-bop station right now, and the kids would think it a rage.

Country.... George Jones and Willie Nelson. George probably did more for the country blues than anyone I know. He could tell a beer-drinking story like no one else.

Ok, I'm weird. I love gospel bluegrass music. Doyle Lawson and Gospel Radio Gems is the best 4 part harmony I have ever heard. Ever. Doyle does a superb job of arranging songs, and picking the ranges where the voices blend the best.

[Drabdr]

You're right about Brian Wilson. I heard some stuff by him-heroes and villians; incredible. Really good stuff.

[Drabdr]

Ok, Tim. You seem to be in the mood.

Why are the Beatles not given the credit they deserve? And for that matter, the Rolling Stones?

Ok, here's my theory... This goes to when the Passion of the Christ movie was dissed by the Academy Awards. At the time of the awards, the movie had grossed 3/4 of a billion dollars. Set aside religion and all... Does the marketplace not have some merit in determining worth?

My point.... the Passion of the Christ deserved best picture and best adaptation. If nothing else, the public voted with their money, that it was a good movie.

Sooo.... given the commercial success of the Stones and Beatles, aren't they arguably the best?

[Cookiegal]

Originally Posted by Drabdr

Why CV for this thread?? Anyway, hope the boy and family are doing good.

I think you started doing this, but there are going to have to be a lot of disclaimers. I mean, what exactly are we talking about?

If you are talking influential, Eddie Arnold is big. When Willie Nelson says he can't hold a candle to Mabell Carter, that says something.

If you are talking across generations, The Beatles are there. There music and lyrics were so far ahead of their time. And... when you crack open the Anthologies, they could actually sing.

Another band way way ahead of their time... Led Zeppelin. Many of their songs you could play on a diddy-bop station right now, and the kids would think it a rage.

Country.... George Jones and Willie Nelson. George probably did more for the country blues than anyone I know. He could tell a beer-drinking story like no one else.

Ok, I'm weird. I love gospel bluegrass music. Doyle Lawson and Gospel Radio Gems is the best 4 part harmony I have ever heard. Ever. Doyle does a superb job of arranging songs, and picking the ranges where the voices blend the best.

What is CV? Civil Valis?

[valis]

Originally Posted by Cookiegal

Civil Valis?

talk about your oxymoronic statements..........that's almost as bad as civil war.........

[Drabdr]

Originally Posted by Cookiegal

What is CV? Civil Valis?

Originally Posted by valis

talk about your oxymoronic statements..........that's almost as bad as civil war.........

Oh... no. It can't be a regular who noticed it and let me know... No, you have to leave it for Cookie to find.

And Valis, you couldn't do the valiant thing and fix it. You had to publicly point it out!!

geez, with friends like this......

[valis]

Originally Posted by Drabdr

Why are the Beatles not given the credit they deserve? And for that matter, the Rolling Stones?

Very simple there, drab..........the Stones were THE band that pulled the blues into the mainstream. Period. Sans the blues, the Fab Four would have been the Fad Four. Trust me on this.

Ok, here's my theory... This goes to when the Passion of the Christ movie was dissed by the Academy Awards. At the time of the awards, the movie had grossed 3/4 of a billion dollars. Set aside religion and all... Does the marketplace not have some merit in determining worth?

Nope. None whatsoever. What I am looking for is what you deem influential and why. You make a plea for your case, and me and a few others will decide if it's worthy or not.

Remember, this is the vestiges of an experiment gone awry back in January of this year. What we want is your opinion, not what you think should be right due to the simple fact of moving records. The Eagles, until Jackson's death, had the all-time super duper king heavyweight championship of the USA with their Greatest Hits album, yet I wouldn't even put them in my top 50.

Maybe not top 100.

Who do you think was influential and why?

Who formed your musical and why?

Who's the best frontman? (if the answer doesn't end in Mercury, you are incorrect. )

Best axe man?

Drums?

Give me your opinions, and then let me and mine rip them to shreds or agree with them.

Then you get your chance to substantiate your claim.

It's all fun, bro.

My point.... the Passion of the Christ deserved best picture and best adaptation. If nothing else, the public voted with their money, that it was a good movie.

Sooo.... given the commercial success of the Stones and Beatles, aren't they arguably the best?

commercial success means squat. Titanic was a commercial success, and I think it was amongst the worst movies ever made. Ditto for Pearl Harbor.

Now, Memento, or Eraserhead, those were groundbreaking flicks.

So no, commercial success means nothing. All it proves is that the masses are idiots, which, thanks to our electoral system, we already knew.

[valis]

Originally Posted by Drabdr

geez, with friends like this......

let's just say that when it comes to musika I am strongly opinionated.

and given how opinionated I am on a regular day, that's saying something.

night all, more on the morn.

[Drabdr]

To me, the most influential person is the one who affects the other musicians, whether they are honest with admitting it or not.

Elvis Presley is without a doubt the most influential person in music. He taught musicians to be performers. He defined a revolution in music (in America).

His gospel music was some of the best. His arrangements of old traditional songs became the comparison; he established the standard for "covering" a song.

He was smart, and surrounded himself with some of the best. He made sure all knew he was the reason they were there; but was shrewd enough to share the microphone.

He was a very successful formula of doing what he wanted as an artist, but still giving the people what they wanted.

Elvis has influenced more performers across more genres of music than any other. In second, would be Eric Clapton.

[Drabdr]

Originally Posted by valis

V
commercial success means squat. Titanic was a commercial success, and I think it was amongst the worst movies ever made. Ditto for Pearl Harbor.

Now, Memento, or Eraserhead, those were groundbreaking flicks.

So no, commercial success means nothing. All it proves is that the masses are idiots, which, thanks to our electoral system, we already knew.

I don't know if I can summarily dismiss commercial success so quickly. Commercial success is a general indicator of the marketability of the product. This krap of the Academy awards awarding some movie (oh.. say Brokeback Mountain) as this great work, but one that no one wanted to see, just does not pan out.

Saying.... I think that any serious "influential" nomination can't be a "nobody". They have to be able to put rears in the seats.

[ckphilli]

Yea, think I'll need to hit this one on the weekend...too tired.

In the meantime... Robert Johnson, Leadbelly and Sonhouse... add them into the equation.

Robert Johnson is so very raw but so wonderful to listen to...if you're me.

Hit it up later, I promise.

[ckphilli]

So I'll just hit it up now... can't sleep anyway

Who do you think was influential and why?

No brainer, da Beatles. No band has touched so many and continues to touch so many. People like them because of their music...not because they escorted blues into the mainstream...Stones boy.

Who formed your musical and why?

Alice in Chains, Pink Floyd and Robert Johnson. Between the three of them my musical needs are met, that's why.

Who's the best frontman? (if the answer doesn't end in Mercury, you are incorrect. )

Hard to top Freddie... but Robert Plant is incredible.

Best axe man?

Hard one...first riff that came into my head was Layla...so I'll say Eric Clapton.

Drums?

Duh, Neil Pert

[thingamajig]

What, no Lynyrd Skynyrd ckphilli? Trader!

Assuming we are talking about popular rock genre music, I'll give the first that comes to mind without analysis Valis. I didn't know about your experiment or I would have put some diversity on the list.

Originally Posted by valis

Who do you think was influential and why?

Sex Pistols - to drag the topic into this century. You don't have to be a dynasty to change the course of music and you mentioned U2 and modern alternative. All roads lead back to SP.

Originally Posted by valis

Who formed your musical and why?

Anything and everything. No way I can narrow this down.

Originally Posted by valis

Who's the best frontman? (if the answer doesn't end in Mercury, you are incorrect. )

Tina Turner. I had to break the white male assumption here.

Otherwise I'd have to agree on Mercury last century and Davey Havok more recently.

Originally Posted by valis

Best axe man?

Carlos Santana because of his signature sound. Nobody can play Carlos but Carlos.

Originally Posted by valis

Drums?

Steve Smith with Journey with the old and James Sullivan with Avenged Sevenfold new because their skill drew my attention away from the guys in front.

[valis]

Originally Posted by thingamajig

Sex Pistols - to drag the topic into this century. You don't have to be a dynasty to change the course of music and you mentioned U2 and modern alternative. All roads lead back to SP.

gad, don't get me started on the pistols..........all they were was a marketing gimmick designed to line Mclaren's pockets, and they succeeded gleefully at that. Other than that, rubbish.

Tina Turner. I had to break the white male assumption here.

Otherwise I'd have to agree on Mercury last century and Davey Havok more recently.

remember, if your answer isn't Freddie Merc you are incorrect.

Carlos Santana because of his signature sound. Nobody can play Carlos but Carlos.

He falls into my Hendrix category. I recognize him for his ability, but can't stand him. Jimi may easily be the best guitarist ever, and I'll give it up to him, but can't stand his music.

Steve Smith with Journey with the old and James Sullivan with Avenged Sevenfold new because their skill drew my attention away from the guys in front.

Meh.

Again, even though I can't stand the guy, Lars Ulrich from Metallica is way up there........but nobody, and I mean nobody, shoots the Moon.