[iltos]

Originally Posted by aka Brett

Then put your great research skills to work and figure out a way to make it happen....or I will drive everyone insane just to take em down with me

PS
Reminder........... Obama sucks

another round, bartender....i'm buyin
i voted for obama, brett....i found him charismatic, and thought he would LEAD us to a place where pride wasn't just being "american", it was about being free, and willing to be courageous again in a world where too many cower in fear and see shadows in the darkness.....

my feelings about him now are mixed....perhaps for many of the reasons that conservatives ended up with mixed feelings about bush, when all was said and done....as i said not to many posts ago, obama seems to have a remarkable propensity to stick his foot in his mouth: it could be said that is so because he's NOT a politician....but i'm coming to see it as more as an idealistic naivete as a person, and i'd guess that while he chuckles publically at the mantle of "the anoited one" that the most vocal of the conservatives lay upon him, there is indeed a massive amount of self-satisfaction in that brain of his somewhere....feeding that naivete

really all not that different from the former prez, imo.....carrying out their visions as best they can, with varying degrees of public and political support, in the face of planetary curves balls -911 for bush, and the economy for obama.

what's he's about is a long way from "perfect", and i make no excuses for that...i believe that some of the criticisms aimed at him have merit, but i continue to respect the gestalt of his presidency.

mostly -and in spite of his ability to stick his foot in his mouth- i continue to respect his belief that we americans are better -wiser and more inventive- that we have been acting towards the rest of the world, and islam in particular.....that we have been challenged to hold onto the pride in ourselves and our values that the fear which terrorism has planted in us has twisted into a parody.

it's frustrating to me, too, brett, that the world is not simple....that so little of it is "either/or"....research only confirms that

as do arguements like the ones you present....the undeniable truth to me is that while your criticisms of his presidency will hit a home run from time to time, he throws a high inside strike from time to time that you can't even see....it won't make him a great president -like most he will remembered for the results of his policies, rather that the foundations of his principles....but you'll know when one of those principles whiffs by you by the confusion in your pov.....or by your denial of that confusion

ready for a meyers and lime now?

[aka Brett]

Originally Posted by iltos

another round, bartender....i'm buyin
i voted for obama, brett....i found him charismatic, and thought he would LEAD us to a place where pride wasn't just being "american", it was about being free, and willing to be courageous again in a world where too many cower in fear and see shadows in the darkness.....

my feelings about him now are mixed....perhaps for many of the reasons that conservatives ended up with mixed feelings about bush, when all was said and done....as i said not to many posts ago, obama seems to have a remarkable propensity to stick his foot in his mouth: it could be said that is so because he's NOT a politician....but i'm coming to see it as more as an idealistic naivete as a person, and i'd guess that while he chuckles publically at the mantle of "the anoited one" that the most vocal of the conservatives lay upon him, there is indeed a massive amount of self-satisfaction in that brain of his somewhere....feeding that naivete

really all not that different from the former prez, imo.....carrying out their visions as best they can, with varying degrees of public and political support, in the face of planetary curves balls -911 for bush, and the economy for obama.

what's he's about is a long way from "perfect", and i make no excuses for that...i believe that some of the criticisms aimed at him have merit, but i continue to respect the gestalt of his presidency.

mostly -and in spite of his ability to stick his foot in his mouth- i continue to respect his belief that we americans are better -wiser and more inventive- that we have been acting towards the rest of the world, and islam in particular.....that we have been challenged to hold onto the pride in ourselves and our values that the fear which terrorism has planted in us has twisted into a parody.

it's frustrating to me, too, brett, that the world is not simple....that so little of it is "either/or"....research only confirms that

as do arguements like the ones you present....the undeniable truth to me is that while your criticisms of his presidency will hit a home run from time to time, he throws a high inside strike from time to time that you can't even see....it won't make him a great president -like most he will remembered for the results of his policies, rather that the foundations of his principles....but you'll know when one of those principles whiffs by you by the confusion in your pov.....or by your denial of that confusion

ready for a meyers and lime now?

It is good to see that you have put down the Koolaid jug and are in recovery

His socials skills rank very high,that is why he is where he is..He tells people what they want to hear...its the make of a politician....lets face it a large percentage of them are nothing but high tech thieves.

I have always stated...Vote on the candidates history not on his campaign promise....After all we wouldnt want to vote in a alcoholic to watch the liquor store.

His past was terrible at best...he speeches were A plus.....But within those speeches there was talk of shutting down gitmo...a very bad sign

Many were fooled and thought they were going to all get houses and new cars or maybe just a check in the mail for 50 thousand.

Nothing is free it all comes to a cost from someone or something its the law of science.

High inside strike?yes to the people as he uses the position of CIC as a playground...he never had me fooled....From the beginning my stance was strong and as we see...these paranoid rants as people felt they were hearing are becoming truth.

I will take that drink as long as you are buying..........after all the libs bought the whole song and dance ..may as well throw a drink on the deficit as well

[Littlefield]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but his confession is inadmissible at trial. Should the court allow it (guaranteed overturning any conviction) then the defense will get to bring up how it was obtained ie waterboarding and I'm sure the defense will have an actual waterboarding demonstrated to the jury. I know I would.

Why New York? The case could have been brought in Washington D.C. just as easily.

You may also want to consider that there is only one set of criminal procedures for use in a federal criminal trial..........how do we avoid the claim that his due process rights weren't violated for failure to provide him with his constitutional right to a speedy trial?

Anyone watch Attorney General Holder getting grilled by the Senate today on this very matter? They made him look like the arse he is. The question asked that really struck home (and had Holder looking like a deer caught in the headlights as he stumbled and mumbled) was: name a prior case in which an enemy combatant was captured on foreign soil and then brought to the US for trial under the criminal justice system? Answer: Never and Holder couldn't answer the question................what a friggin idiot.

Damn you beat me to it Yep ,our former JAG lawyer SC SEN. Lindsay Graham made Holder look like a fool asking the question that the former JAG lawyer knew the answer to before he asked it

[Paquadez]

Originally Posted by iltos

ironic that ^^^^
i hear your personal arguement Paq.....there's a part of me that has no problem with it....but your comment about the ICC disassembles the whole statement about them being treated without regard for their human rights because......etc.....

the ICC is a court of law, with rules of procedure designed by "western civilization".....the very thing terrorism has severe issues with....it's advantage (and it's a big one, imo.....if we gringos could just get over ourselves) is that it is international......and THAT to me is the best venue for any sort of judgement against this fool.

and it's that which remains the outstanding weakness in simon's arguement, and one -perhaps unrecognized- strength in LANs rant against Holder's decision and, thus, Obama's blunder (sidebar: what's the use of having all these "czars" if obama get's blamed for it all, anyway? )

Perhaps in considering this, we need to return to consideration of the body of findings which led to the ICC and the basis of International Law which flowed therefrom, subsequently.

The Nuremberg Principles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Principles

And leave partisan US politics out of the dynamic to achieve a more disciplined and meaningful debate.

For once.................

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by Paquadez

Perhaps in considering this, we need to return to consideration of the body of findings which led to the ICC and the basis of International Law which flowed therefrom, subsequently.

The Nuremberg Principles:...................

....originally written up by Shakespeare:--------

................but if the cause be wrong, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make..................

Old William comes to mind a lot these days anyway.............

.............oh wisdom thou hast fled to brutish beasts and men have lost their reason.................

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by Paquadez

Perhaps in considering this, we need to return to consideration of the body of findings which led to the ICC and the basis of International Law which flowed therefrom, subsequently.

The Nuremberg Principles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Principles

And leave partisan US politics out of the dynamic to achieve a more disciplined and meaningful debate.

For once.................

Interesting how Karadzic can be tried without any of the partisanship broohawhaw, interesting how Milosevic could be tried.

The Nuremberg trial did and has ever since smacked of partisanship (victors' justice). Leaving aside revisionist Germanic thinking (whether from die hard Nazis or lesser charges of little or no culpability), they were the worst best thing to do. Except that there were no better best things around at the time. But where it taught many a lot and should in fact have taught everybody that some sort of non-partisan international court is required, the US's refusal of acknowledgement of its authority in this case really backfires for once.

Latest news is that Gitmo can't be closed right now. Well the latest of the latest anyway

There are detainees whose guilt could not be established but who also cannot be released since nobody (US included) will take them.

They're civilian so they should be tried in a civil court. Hey, no they're not
so they need to be tried in a military court. Hey no they can't 'cos they're not given military combatant status. So we just keep 'em locked up. Hey
can't do that, what about habeas corpus? Ok we don't afford them that one since POW don't get that. Hey, but they're not POW.

What a f.... up

A set up which the previous admin created and with which it left the whole country and the whole system and any successor in the oval office. It doesn't bloody matter whether you were for or against the previous admin or whether you are for or against the present one. There needs to be closure or at least a move towards it.

So how about some of the vitriolic opposition to civil criminal court proceedings getting pro active and coming up with a suggestion on WHAT ELSE TO DO?

If anyone got any better ideas state 'em, if not shut the hell up.

[Paquadez]

The Nuremberg trial did and has ever since smacked of partisanship (victors' justice).

Ah it ever does, El Buffo!

Always to be remembered is that:

"The law is the crystallization of the prejudices of the majority!"

Since we're in philosophical mood today.

[buffoon]

Originally Posted by iltos

............it's frustrating to me, too, brett, that the world is not simple....that so little of it is "either/or"....research only confirms that.............

unfrustrate yourself Bob.

The quest for simplicity is a child's yearning for Shangri La. Attempting to put simplistic answers onto complex issues is infantile already, trying to reduce complex issues to mere black and white so that the equally simplistic yes/no solutions fit them is intellectual dishonesty.

Apart from clearly constituting a severe case of cognitive dissonance, this sort of take also shows for laziness of thinking.

You know that as I do so no need for frustration. Those that do not, cannot or wish not to acknowledge "greys" are the ones frustrated and rightly and justly so.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by aka Brett

It is good to see that you have put down the Koolaid jug and are in recovery

don't be too hasty with your praise.....the post wasn't put here for that reason....
it was a high inside strike.....and you didn't even see it
a lousy pick for your home run derby....but you'll swing at anything

this topic has so far surprised me: i wasn't exactly sure why i posted it....i didn't have strong feelings about it one way or the other......and -being a gringo at heart- i'd forgotten all about the ICC

i just thought that simon's pov was refreshing -and offered a different take on the all the criticism i'd been hearing.

the responses here have got me thinking about it, tho...and there are parallels to be made between it and the appointment thread....parallels that speak to the president's views about the courage that is necessary in a free society, imo -things that have been all but forgotten by us since 911...
leaving this guy to rot as a "prisoner of war" epitomizes it.....he represents a single head of the hydra that is the "war"....and not even the critical one....this hydra's one immortal head is zealotry....
and just like the myth, the only way to "win" against this hydra is to cut off the heads and cauterizeuse the stumps, and then turn it's own weapon against it.....turn the poison of zealotry against itself.

that's what simon speaks to, imo, particularly when he suggests the "change in the winds" of islam pundits wrt terrorism......and while you yourself are more careful now, having felt the sting of black and white in the appointment thread, the arguements against a trial presented in this thread -while offering up valid concerns- are tainted still by the poison of zealotry.....

its main symptom is not anger, but the fear and paralysis that provokes it.
you don't vanguish anger by making a weapon out of it, imo, but by taking proactive steps to understand it.

for better or for worse, that's one of the tools obama brings to his presidency in this particular area....if that view equates to your "koolaid", then i'm proud to drink it.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Paquadez

And leave partisan US politics out of the dynamic to achieve a more disciplined and meaningful debate.

For once.................

but.....ummm.....
best of luck with that Paq

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Paquadez

Since we're in philosophical mood today.

you are all the victims of my thread

[iltos]

Originally Posted by buffoon

Apart from clearly constituting a severe case of cognitive dissonance, this sort of take also shows for laziness of thinking.

it is to this forum's credit that some members called me on that early on.....and it is my curse to imagine i have any ability to be successful calling others on it.

but my joy is to continue trying

[aka Brett]

Originally Posted by iltos

don't be too hasty with your praise.....the post wasn't put here for that reason....
it was a high inside strike.....and you didn't even see it
a lousy pick for your home run derby....but you'll swing at anything

this topic has so far surprised me: i wasn't exactly sure why i posted it....i didn't have strong feelings about it one way or the other......and -being a gringo at heart- i'd forgotten all about the ICC

i just thought that simon's pov was refreshing -and offered a different take on the all the criticism i'd been hearing.

the responses here have got me thinking about it, tho...and there are parallels to be made between it and the appointment thread....parallels that speak to the president's views about the courage that is necessary in a free society, imo -things that have been all but forgotten by us since 911...
leaving this guy to rot as a "prisoner of war" epitomizes it.....he represents a single head of the hydra that is the "war"....and not even the critical one....this hydra's one immortal head is zealotry....
and just like the myth, the only way to "win" against this hydra is to cut off the heads and cauterizeuse the stumps, and then turn it's own weapon against it.....turn the poison of zealotry against itself.

that's what simon speaks to, imo, particularly when he suggests the "change in the winds" of islam pundits wrt terrorism......and while you yourself are more careful now, having felt the sting of black and white in the appointment thread, the arguements against a trial presented in this thread -while offering up valid concerns- are tainted still by the poison of zealotry.....

its main symptom is not anger, but the fear and paralysis that provokes it.
you don't vanguish anger by making a weapon out of it, imo, but by taking proactive steps to understand it.

for better or for worse, that's one of the tools obama brings to his presidency in this particular area....if that view equates to your "koolaid", then i'm proud to drink it.

I just couldnt pass up a chance like that..you lobbed it out there

I see by your last sentence you have slipped......well progress is progress....baby steps are allowed.

The tools Obama brings is very bad...while it is a nice thought its a bad idea....When the libs get out of fairy tale land and realize that, then we can once again be a great nation.

For the current situation.....let them stay in pow style camp until the war is over...to do anything less than is an insult to the american people

[aka Brett]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Certainly he would have the right to demand that the Jury be stacked with Muslims of his "ilk" for a fair and impartial trial.
Oh .... and those jurists would obviously be presented with all the evidence that KSM's lawyer wishes to present in his defense. But I am sure that someone would make them "promise" not to share their discovery with anyone.

Muslims cant give a fair trial?.........Reminds me of the appointment thread

[iltos]

Originally Posted by aka Brett

Muslims cant give a fair trial?.........Reminds me of the appointment thread

indeed....funny how this same issue keeps popping up, isn't it?
you're learning, grasshopper