[wacor]

I was gonna post this elsewhere but it looked like every thread on pot has been closed.

Is this a TSG conspiracy??

Stoner will no doubt want to chime in.

Read and weep baby. The time has come to wake up from neanderthal thinking.

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by wacor

I was gonna post this elsewhere but it looked like every thread on pot has been closed.

Is this a TSG conspiracy??

Stoner will no doubt want to chime in.

Read and weep baby. The time has come to wake up from neanderthal thinking.


..............................

Stoner will no doubt want to chime in.

Not much....it's all been posted before.

Is this a TSG conspiracy??

You've been smoking this morning....admit it

Read and weep baby.

Those that are sober likely will, those that dance to the tune, likely won't.

The time has come to wake up from neanderthal thinking.

Amazing watching how smoke alters the perceptions of abusers

[wacor]

I knew you could not resist.

Notice you did not respond to the numbers. Kind of hard to defend them I suppose so rather than do that you ignore it.

We are getting a real good bang for the buck from all that enforcement and incarceration aren't we.

You can say it is the same argument but the numbers don't lie. The reality is that we are fighting something not winnable at a cost that is absurd.

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by wacor

I knew you could not resist.

Notice you did not respond to the numbers. Kind of hard to defend them I suppose so rather than do that you ignore it.

We are getting a real good bang for the buck from all that enforcement and incarceration aren't we.

You can say it is the same argument but the numbers don't lie. The reality is that we are fighting something not winnable at a cost that is absurd.

Notice you did not respond to the numbers. Kind of hard to defend them I suppose so rather than do that you ignore it.

Nothing new in those numbers, Bill........you are watching a society in decline that can't defend itself from within.

We are getting a real good bang for the buck from all that enforcement and incarceration aren't we.

That's an old argument, nothing about it seems to have changed, Bill.
Just an example of a society committing suicide.
Go ahead.....cheer it on.......doesn't hurt my argument at all.

The reality is that we are fighting something not winnable at a cost that is absurd.

You might just be correct.
Society in the US does look like it's headed down a toilet.
Say good bye to the free America you loved so much and embrace the slavery of the drug culture you are endeared to in your argument.
Your smoke dreams might just be the last remnants of pleasure you experience.

[Paquadez]

OK: I'll bite.

Here is something I wrote last year.

Unlike alcohol and tobacco, must commonly used "Recreational" drugs are pyschotropic: i.e. they have an instant and deep effect on brain chemistry.

Even "Harmless" drugs such as Weed and Es, are increasingly worrying researchers since it is clearly apparent long term use causes significant mental problems.

Not the least being Psychosis: which seems to lead to increasing incidence of serious mental illness such as Schitzophrenia.

Look here for example: an excellent in-depth analysis of the effects and side-effects of Methylenedioxymethamphetamine; Es.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA

Perhaps the most worrying, raised respiration, heart rate and blood pressure.

The inherrant dangers of Cocaine, of course, are well documented.

Perhaps James Hunt is an exemplar of reality.

With Cannabis the main problem seems to be stronger cultivars such as Skunk: there are now defined co-relationships between longer-term usage and serious mental illness.

Now morally, my major concern would be the young: easier access to legal drugs would cause more kids potentially, to start from peer pressure alone.

Plus legalisation automatically implies safety: no matter how many Public Health warning notices are emblazoned all over the packaging!

We must accept, I fear, that as each generation has grown up since circa 1950, their parents and control group (Aunts, Uncles, etc) themselves present with little evidence of discretion in consumption and marked self-discipline and self-control: hence for example, the appalling numbers of truly obese blobs, wobbling around in Britain today!

Behavioural changes of alcohol consumption, with the exceptions of the dypsomaniac, the truly alcoholic, or the binge-drinking king kids slight: and kids binge-drinking is a symptom not a causal factor in itself.

Most of us who appreciate alcohol, use it wisely and to marginally improve our social activities: such as drinking decent wine with dinner. However, I’m sure most of us could still enjoy that dinner and the company of friends with no alcohol: same with a pint or two in the pub at weekends.

We do not need the alcohol to enjoy ourselves: rather we amplify such enjoyment with a moderate libation.

Unfortunately, far too many (And rapidly increasing) numbers of younger people cannot conceive a night of “Clubbing” without boosting their mental state with drugs: clubs themselves of course, are wholly synthetic environments, with over-loud sound, flashing lights, regurgitated music and people standing on the spot jigging up and down rather like Maasai warriors!

Dependency is another major concern: drug takers tend to need to increase their dosage and shorten the period between doses to attain the original “high”: and when a less harmful less addictive substance fails to work, then they tend to graduate to something stronger.

The incidence of dependency and addiction has been well documented, unfortunately, with the introduction of the wonder drugs, Benzodiazipines, from the 1960s onwards. (Diazepam; Librium; Lorenzapam; Attivan: Moggodon et al). Indeed, Temazipan (A mild sleeping drug and a Benzo), was withdrawn in capsule liquid form, as too many druggies were injecting the drug!

No matter how many fags you smoke, this doesn’t normally create mood and thus behavioural changes!

Other than choking, of course.

It is rather convenient for “Experts” to employ alcohol and tobacco as yardsticks, since both are legal.

However I believe this much clouds the issue.

Here is an extract from an earlier piece of last year, which I believe is useful as it analyses the probabilities of post-legalisation realities: namely that drugs would be cheaper and criminality would evaporate.

__________________________________


There seems to be a naïve assumption shared by all proponents of decriminalisation of drugs that once decriminalised then the current covert global network of drugs producers and distributors will sort of melt into the forest like morning mist……………..

Such assumptions are similar to Government’s myopic belief that passing legislation to ban legally owned handguns and certain types of rifles post the Dunblane and Hungerford tragedies would solve gun crime.

Now the main singular difference between the drugs of choice and alcohol (invariably used as the primary benchmark) are that alcohol in moderate quantities does not drastically change behaviour: neither is it addictive, per se.

Alcohol is a poison: and it acts as a depressive, contrary to many people’s belief.

Nicotine, taken by way of smoking, is hugely addictive: more addictive in fact than Heroin. However, once again, tobacco consumption doesn’t particularly alter behaviour.

Increasing numbers of Western people suffer Addictive Personality: and this reality is worsened by a sort of frenetic synthetic lifestyle, detached from core human values and benefits and suffering increasing imposed stresses from work, debt, frustration and social aggression of many forms.

Assuming currently proscribed drugs were to be legalised for both supply and possession, then the whole supply chain from growers to retail suppliers would be formalised. Most present drugs growers (i.e. those which cultivate raw feedstock) would find their rudimentary production methodologies outlawed, with the core exception, perhaps of poppies grown for raw opium.

Government departments such as the FDA in the USA and Defra and NICE in the UK would formalise guidelines for production and purity.

All suppliers in the chain would need to be licensed to ensure both purity and product marketing.

Of course, Big Pharma would take over the business of production and supply through extant distributors, licensed wholesalers and similarly licensed retailers.

Naturally, government would add on whopping taxes, similar to tobacco products: Excise Duty plus VAT on total retail cost.

Thus end product would not be cheap.

Perhaps the largest hurdle to overcome is testing and approval: and every company in the supply chain sharing product liability.

And more critically, who is going to underwrite the manufacturer’s and product liability?

The finally successful multi-billion class actions against US tobacco corporations are the benchmark.

Which major suppliers do you honestly believe would market a product range that they very well knew was highly addictive and ruined the health of the consumer? And would allow an open door to a flood of claims in this highly litigious age?

The alternative – believing that if currently proscribed drugs were to be de-criminalized, then all in the supply chain would not cut marginally pure product in order to maximise profits – is simply cloud cuckoo land!

How in any case, would addicts fund their habit? Working? Honest endeavour?

Of course not: they have sunk to the pits of social and personal despair only and purely because of their addiction: as any case worker involved in drugs counselling could tell you. They have become so socially dysfunctional, that work is simply not tenable: thus women sell their bodies and men steal.

In order to support this dysfunction, wherein the only focus of concern is obtaining the next fix, it would matter not whether their chosen poison or poisons are illegal or legal: their behavioural pattern dictates sacrifice to their pre-eminent and compelling need.

Why is it that those wishing to sanitize deviant habit use fuzzy cuddly and warm descriptors in the vain attempt of trying to legitimise aberrant behaviour? An example being the telling phrase, “Recreational Drugs”!

If a person needs drugs, in order to “enjoy” themselves, then clearly, something is sadly amiss with their psyche.

Would major drugs traffickers simply sit and watch their cash cow vanish?

Of course they would react by trying, as do all businesses, to create competitive advantage: and the one major weapon they have is price: since they would be free of all the added layers of cost.

As government increased and increased tobacco taxes, the direct result was an epidemic rise in smuggling.

De-Criminalizing drugs would be no different.

http://www.drinkanddrugs.net/backgro...ndbriefing.pdf

[Stoner]

Good post Paq........but wasted in this forum on those that rationalize from desire.

[wacor]

I don't rationalize anything based on desire. History and numbers tell me everything I need to know. We can not stop it. We will not stop it and we have done nothing but waste money trying to stop it ever since it was made illegal.

None of the theories about doom and gloom have shown to be credible where it has been legalized it seems.

Your drug culture is here. We have our heads buried in the sand trying to swat at it in ways that have proven both costly and ineffective.

[valis]

the drug culture is indeed here. Has been for several decades now, with the rise of the pharmaceutical industry and 'happiness now comes in pill form'.

Legalizing pot, IMO, would do nothing to our society; it would not have a positive effect and it would not have a negative effect. If anything, it would be more positive than negative, as we wouldn't be shelling out millions, if not billions, to combat marijuana alone.

Paq nailed it when he said alcohol was a poison; you could consume an ounce of alcohol and an ounce of heroin, and even though the heroin is what's going to kill you, the body will synthesize the alcohol first, simply because it IS a poison.

Again, I've said it many times, I see no viable reason that marijuana should be illegal. It's certainly not a gateway drug, as we are already through the gateway. It's far less addictive than either alcohol or cigarettes, and while the true extent of long-term usage is unknown, can it be any worse than the long-time usage of either alcohol or tobacco?

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by wacor

I don't rationalize anything based on desire. History and numbers tell me everything I need to know. We can not stop it. We will not stop it and we have done nothing but waste money trying to stop it ever since it was made illegal.

None of the theories about doom and gloom have shown to be credible where it has been legalized it seems.

Your drug culture is here. We have our heads buried in the sand trying to swat at it in ways that have proven both costly and ineffective.

I don't rationalize anything based on desire.

Of course you do or your logic wouldn't be so twisted.

History and numbers tell me everything I need to know.

Then I suggest you weren't paying attention during the lessons.

None of the theories about doom and gloom have shown to be credible where it has been legalized it seems.

To the contrary....it just doesn't happen over night.
The US has already shown the signs of scientific , cultural and moral degradation as drug abuse has ramped up illegally.

Your drug culture is here.

And you argue to legalize it and allow it to grow to a greater extent.

Trillions of dollars go out each year to stop terrorism, and yet not one single citizen has died from a terrorist within the US since 911.

And yet drugs kill thousands each year and you argue to promote it.
Bill.......your argument is insane.

Your drug culture is here.

Yes, it is....and you stare it it in the face and argue to embrace a future driven by it.

We have our heads buried in the sand trying to swat at it in ways that have proven both costly and ineffective.

You and everyone arguing to legalize drug abuse .....have your heads stuck in more than just sand

You are the problem.

[Stoner]

About all that's missing in this thread so far is xico's argument that the Constitution guarantees everyone the right to be an addict

[LANMaster]

Legalizing marijuana is an idiotic idea.
The societal cost, in dollars, would far outweigh any potential tax benefit.

[valis]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Legalizing marijuana is an idiotic idea.
The societal cost, in dollars, would far outweigh any potential tax benefit.

how is the societal cost going to outweigh the billions we spend annually fighting it?

Please. We are already a drug culture.

[valis]

Originally Posted by Stoner

You and everyone arguing to legalize drug abuse .....have your heads stuck in more than just sand

You are the problem.

there's where you and I come into that semantic merry go round. A user is not an abuser. Kids buy Robitussin because in sufficiently high dosages it's a dissociative hallucinogen.

I buy robitussin as a cough suppressant. It's gotten bad enough down here that in many pharmacies you cannot buy it off the floor, you need to buy it through the pharmacy itself. You don't need a 'script, but you have to through the head drug dude to get it.

However, you can buy wine off of the floor. Weird.

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by valis

there's where you and I come into that semantic merry go round. A user is not an abuser. Kids buy Robitussin because in sufficiently high dosages it's a dissociative hallucinogen.

I buy robitussin as a cough suppressant. It's gotten bad enough down here that in many pharmacies you cannot buy it off the floor, you need to buy it through the pharmacy itself. You don't need a 'script, but you have to through the head drug dude to get it.

However, you can buy wine off of the floor. Weird.

What's your point?
You merely listed a common medicinal drug that is abused for recreational purposes.
Many drugs do have a medicinal background.

A user is not an abuser.

Depends on what they are using and why.

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by valis

how is the societal cost going to outweigh the billions we spend annually fighting it?

Please. We are already a drug culture.

This was addressed in the pot thread that was closed.
And this is one of the reasons this forum has become boring.........the constant referral to the same issues over and over when an appropriate response was originally given and no rebuttal returned.
Not just the pot thread, but many of the threads in civ debate...........wait 6 months and post again, wait 6 months again and post the same challenge.

Hell, I've shown one member several times that bin Laden admitted to planning the 911 attack and sure enough......with in the last week or so, the same claim was made that bin Laden was innocent..........by the same person!....true, he probably has memory problems
But it grows old.