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Fidelista's Avatar
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05-Dec-2010, 11:31 AM #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by thingamajig View Post
The prior exposure of the information is no excuse for further damage. You can bet that I will not facilitate the further dissemination of the information. If it was wrong in the first place, it is wrong in each additional incident.



I find nothing entertaining in the current matter.



Almost all sexual charges are trumped. It's funny how such things are minimized when convenient. When a divorced woman accuses a man of abuse then hang him. If someone who you view to have done something amusing is accused than they are trumped. Excuse me if I abhor your double standard.



Assange has delusions of grandeur. History gains nothing from his actions.
To your first point , the nearly all news media is reporting details of the leaks provided by wiki .
I think you will find that when most people speak of the cables leak --they speak of what they read
on news , not wiki site . If its wrong in each incident , then would it not be illegal in each as well ?.

As to entertaining . The files are interesting to me , and I am not alone . Diplomats and people in
that work are said to really enjoy !. I find the response of Govts to it more entertaining though -
the great lengths they are going to to prevent what cannot be prevented .
Some say that all the material came from Manning , the soldier. If that is case , they would be
better served by looking at their security. If one simple soldier can look at all diplomatic cables ,
access even the Sec of States private cables ,,something is very wrong .

As to Assange's sexual adventures . That is entertaining for no other reason than the way its being handled .
Monkey's and footballs !!
He is not wanted for leaking info , he is wanted for leaking !
Reckless conduct and unprotected sex are what they want to question him about--
{ unless they concoct another story }.
Keep in mind it was rape at start , then when it would not fly ..they changed story ,
never a good sign of honesty . Once this kind of crap starts -I discount anything further .
>>>" the female requested that he wear a condom, but he refused and they had unprotected
sexual intercourse anyway. In Sweden, that can constitute criminal coercion and worse
and those two females soon informed both law enforcement and the news media of their situation."<<<

So ..... that is what a interpol red alert is about ???? condom use ???? . Never heard of such ! .

It is a circus of the absurd - IMO .

As to Assange's delusions of grandeur , I wouldn't know , don't know him ,
just read what other people say . >f
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Entertainment >>>
As the U.S. State Department continues to deal with the fallout from the latest
WikiLeaks revelations,
diplomats past and present have morphed into self-described Wiki-freaks as they
gleefully pore over the 250,000 cables.

"It pulls the lid off U.S. diplomacy, so there's a real professional fascination in
seeing the nuts and bolts,
because very few of us have had access to these cables before," another diplomat said Friday in
Washington as he grabbed a coffee near the city's so-called Embassy Row.

"If I had been the author of some of them, I'd be proud. They're good quality, professional products,
and they show these diplomats doing precisely what they're supposed to be doing --
providing unvarnished assessments to headquarters from the front lines."

Foreign Policy magazine reported this week that some American diplomats, too, are tickled
about the WikiLeaks crisis.

"Some, in fact, are delighted with the whole affair, for reasons ranging from professional pride
in their handiwork to the opportunity to air long-standing grievances over possibly wrong-headed
public perceptions of foreign events," the magazine wrote


http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/World/2010...cables-101203/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Sexual adventures/ Interpol red alert

In early August 2010, Assange visited Sweden to give a seminar hosted by the
Swedish Social Democratic Party.
On the weekend of August 14, after the seminar, he met and had consensual
sexual intercourse with a female member of that same political group in Enköping.
Two days later, he did much the same with the second woman he had been staying with in Stockholm.
The latter woman was a member of the Swedish Association of Christian Social Democrats a
Christian affiliate of the Swedish Social Democratic Party. She had organized the seminar
and a news conference in Sweden for Assange and was acting as Assange's spokeswoman and
hosting him as a guest in her home during his stay in Sweden. In one of those two encounters,
the female requested that he wear a condom, but he refused and they had unprotected
sexual intercourse anyway.
In Sweden, that can constitute criminal coercion and worse and those two females soon
informed both law enforcement and the news media of their situation.
Assange admits to having had unprotected but, he says, consensual encounters with
two women during a visit to Sweden in August.
Both women chose
Claes Borgstrom as their lawyer for the case.
Assange has said that the accusation against him is a "set-up" arranged by the enemies of WikiLeaks.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AP06Z20101203
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05-Dec-2010, 04:03 PM #47
I start this thread to
1 expose (at the time on going) government censorship on the internet
senator Joe Lieberman has been bragging about how he got wikileaks kicked off amazon's web
servers pulling wikileaks from the DNS servers is without a doubt an extinction of these efforts
regardless of what everydns has to say
2 to provide a way around the government cinsorship

we the people in the United States have the same rights as the people in the rest world
to free (as in freedom) access to information regardless to how embarrassing that information
is to our government
nothing exposed in the wikileaks cablegate web page could be as bad a our government
censoring our last source of free (free as in freedom) information
closing access to inconvenient information is the first step in establishing a totalitarian
government our so called free press has already become a spokesman of the government
(there is no criticism of government policy at all unlike most state owned media around the world )
this is not a right or left issue because both the rich and poor will be living under the same jackboot

Last edited by rob.rice; 05-Dec-2010 at 04:47 PM..
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06-Dec-2010, 10:06 AM #48
We the people of the United States also have a right to privacy. That includes those who are on Uncle Sam's payroll. But some how you are saying that those 2 million or so people that use the compromised network have no rights. We who serve have the same rights as you. My e-mail, official or not, is none of your business. It is especially not the business of people in Sweden or anywhere else in the world. People fight for things (for you) that you would give away. Your attitude sickens me.
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06-Dec-2010, 10:41 AM #49
whatever.

bottom line, if you don't want it read by the populace, take care to make sure it cannot be done.
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06-Dec-2010, 10:55 AM #50
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Originally Posted by valis View Post
whatever.

bottom line, if you don't want it read by the populace, take care to make sure it cannot be done.
That means taking care of Wikileaks if you know what I mean....

You wouldn't be so cavalier if it were your email being published to the world. What you are saying is that we should not use the internet. It's wikileaks or the Internet. You decide which one goes.

What I can't stomach is US citizens advocating the release of US secrets to our enemies.
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06-Dec-2010, 10:57 AM #51
Have we lost sight of the reason such a database of information was even available to steal?
When 911 happened we discovered the most pertinent facts about security wasn't shared between a few hundred police-type organizations.
The CIA didn't know what the FBI was doing, the local cops didn't know what either were investigating,what the heck the police and fire departments couldn't even talk to each other!
Discussions about personalities of assasins talked about at Army inteligence coffee claches weren't even known to clerks issuing visitors visas.
Making databases to alert these police-type organizations was logical and necessary-sharing that information with our enemies is obscene and pathetic. To treat this jerk that did nothing technicly difficult or moraly just as some hero is pathetic.
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06-Dec-2010, 11:02 AM #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by thingamajig View Post
That means taking care of Wikileaks if you know what I mean....

You wouldn't be so cavalier if it were your email being published to the world. What you are saying is that we should not use the internet. It's wikileaks or the Internet. You decide which one goes.
That's not at all what I'm saying. And please do not assume to know what I am saying if you cannot get any closer than that.

I'm cavalier about it because I see no illegal activity outside of the actual leaking of the info. CBS could just as easily have published this, and I guarantee you that had they the info instead of Assange they would have done so faster than you could spit.

Quote:
What I can't stomach is US citizens advocating the release of US secrets to our enemies.
That is, again, your personal view, and while shared by many, it most definitely is not shared by all.
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06-Dec-2010, 11:05 AM #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by thingamajig View Post
We the people of the United States also have a right to privacy. That includes those who are on Uncle Sam's payroll. But some how you are saying that those 2 million or so people that use the compromised network have no rights. We who serve have the same rights as you. My e-mail, official or not, is none of your business. It is especially not the business of people in Sweden or anywhere else in the world. People fight for things (for you) that you would give away. Your attitude sickens me.
You're more and more confusing the imagined scenario of all you 2 million winding up in some cellar with the bright lights on you and the nail pliars being whetted (due to these leaks), with reality.

And if you have an email address that 2 million can read and any one single twerp among them can leak to anywhere, then don't go blaming the body it's leaked to when it's leaked. Blame the twerp who did it and, more importantly, blame the system that made it possible.

Something diplomatic circles in UK, France, Spain, Germany and probably Sweden (not to mention Saudi and Iraq et. al.) will meanwhile happily tell you as well. As they've been telling the US by now.

The current take is, if you want something confidential made public, tell the US. But if you don't, shut the heck up when you hear an American voice near you. Is that an insight you wouild preclude your allies from having gleaned? For the sake of security (theirs)?
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06-Dec-2010, 11:17 AM #54
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Originally Posted by Knotbored View Post
Have we lost sight of the reason such a database of information was even available to steal?
No. I, for one, haven't. But what we did was lose sight of the fact that this made it more availble to steal.
Quote:
Making databases to alert these police-type organizations was logical and necessary
Actually no. Making the information available, and more readily at that, was. Making it available in form of a giant data base was absolutely idiotic. I said so at the time (as opposed to many on here, I knew about it) but I didn't say so on here so, sorry, no link.
Quote:
sharing that information with our enemies is obscene and pathetic.
however unintentionally. But that was in the offing when this damn thing was created.
Quote:
To treat this jerk that did nothing technicly difficult or moraly just as some hero is pathetic.
I'm not heroizing him and he may indeed be a jerk for all I know.

But it's irrelevant.

Edit: read giant database accessible to countless people.
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06-Dec-2010, 11:17 AM #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by buffoon View Post
You're more and more confusing the imagined scenario of all you 2 million winding up in some cellar with the bright lights on you and the nail pliars being whetted (due to these leaks), with reality.

And if you have an email address that 2 million can read and any one single twerp among them can leak to anywhere, then don't go blaming the body it's leaked to when it's leaked. Blame the twerp who did it and, more importantly, blame the system that made it possible.

Something diplomatic circles in UK, France, Spain, Germany and probably Sweden (not to mention Saudi and Iraq et. al.) will meanwhile happily tell you as well. As they've been telling the US by now.
I agree that the way this network was configured was a bad idea from the beginning. But leaving the door open to my house doesn't give you the right to walk in and take something. Your willingness (or a poor person) to take that risk is made possible by the fact that there are places that will buy the stolen item and therefore make it profitable. You have to look at everyone in that chain of taking and distributing stolen product as part of the crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffoon View Post
The current take is, if you want something confidential made public, tell the US. But if you don't, shut the heck up when you hear an American voice near you. Is that an insight you wouild preclude your allies from having gleaned? For the sake of security (theirs)?
If you want your corporate secrets stolen, talk about it in France. I would say our list of sensitive countries is classified but its probably already published. I suppose Rob.Rice and others here would suggest I go ahead and cough up everything I know for the world to read. After all, I work for him so the Iranians need to know.
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06-Dec-2010, 11:56 AM #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by thingamajig View Post
I agree that the way this network was configured was a bad idea from the beginning. But leaving the door open to my house doesn't give you the right to walk in and take something. Your willingness (or a poor person) to take that risk is made possible by the fact that there are places that will buy the stolen item and therefore make it profitable. You have to look at everyone in that chain of taking and distributing stolen product as part of the crime.
Tell you what, if somebody tell me he's walked into your house I'll be suitably indignant. If he then tells me he's gleaned something there about how you're going to screw me up or how you've done so in the past and I can have the data, I'll find it immoral and unethical and I'll huff and puff a lot. Then guess what I'll do.

Actually I'll tell him to go fly a kite since I won't believe him (and you can't screw me up anyway.). If he does the same with government house (as related to me), I'll jump at it. Because experience has shown that they'll screw me at the slightest opportunity. Not the Army, not the DoD nor any Dept. you might work for or have worked. The whole bloody lot by proxy of that same (anonymous) government.
Quote:
If you want your corporate secrets stolen, talk about it in France.
But only if they talk about theirs in exchange. Not too difficult I've found.
Quote:
I would say our list of sensitive countries is classified but its probably already published.
I'll put my feelers out (don't get to hear much on this hill
Quote:
I suppose Rob.Rice and others here would suggest I go ahead and cough up everything I know for the world to read. After all, I work for him so the Iranians need to know.
For someone anatomically incapable of giving birth you must have a lot of stretch marks.
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06-Dec-2010, 12:14 PM #57
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Originally Posted by buffoon View Post
Tell you what, if somebody tell me he's walked into your house I'll be suitably indignant. If he then tells me he's gleaned something there about how you're going to screw me up or how you've done so in the past and I can have the data, I'll find it immoral and unethical and I'll huff and puff a lot. Then guess what I'll do.

Actually I'll tell him to go fly a kite since I won't believe him (and you can't screw me up anyway.). If he does the same with government house (as related to me), I'll jump at it. Because experience has shown that they'll screw me at the slightest opportunity. Not the Army, not the DoD nor any Dept. you might work for or have worked. The whole bloody lot by proxy of that same (anonymous) government.
I appreciate your humor, but you must know that there is information that would be extremely damaging if released. My concern over this issue is not just playing devil's advocate for the purpose of debate. I am as quick as anyone to criticize our government. I also advocate liberty whenever possible and that crimes should be enforced after the fact less we compromise liberty for security (e.g., the TSA groping). Yet, I am not prepared for the potential consequences of the next release of documents by Assange and crew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffoon View Post
But only if they talk about theirs in exchange.
Not if they bug your hotel room or airline seat.

Man visits a country for a scientific meeting. As he is about to settle in for the evening there is a knock at the door. He opens it to find a beautiful woman. She says, "I just wanted to know if there is anything at all that I can do for you this evening." The man is tired and denies her proposition. A few minutes later someone else knocks at the door. It's a fit looking young man. He asks again if there was anything he could do. He is sent away. By now the man is getting tired when he hears yet a third knock at the door. Not wanting to get up he yells, "what is it". From the other side of the door he hears, "baaaaah".
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06-Dec-2010, 01:31 PM #58
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Originally Posted by thingamajig View Post
I appreciate your humor, but you must know that there is information that would be extremely damaging if released. ............., I am not prepared for the potential consequences of the next release of documents by Assange and crew.
Look Thingy, I'm not really advocating that anyone get hold of anything and then pass it on to the press or a convenient address that'll do that (and put it on the net simultaneously). But the need to know principle has, like everything, two sides at least. I've worked along its lines myself, both in government and private corporation capacity. I've also found myself in fixes where my need to know was far more pronounced than some pencil pushing, career mad stuffed shirt in a cozy office deemed at the time. So, as far as I'm concerned, the borders here are flowing. One can argue whether anybody out there really needs to know what asinine comments our current diplomatic lot is making about each other but that's not really my issue. If I catch (highly unlikely in my position, geographically alone) some twit peddling our latest nuke design to whoever, I'll certainly blow the whistle on him, probably more as well (like his brains). But the new technologies that you invoke are a challenge to tighten things up not to find new laws with which to strangle these technologies. Which won't work anyway, the encouraging effect that wikileaks is having will soon find copy cat sites sprouting up all over the place. Possibly with a more responsible outlook, as a result from the current controversy. One can only hope.

Ellsbergs behavior was "new" in his time and they sure enough found a new way of handling him. By eventually chucking the case out. In the verdict of history, wisely so, both with regards to him and the issue. That's why I think it would be wise to abstain from this current hysteria of "get Assange". There's not going to be new global understanding of needing to cooperate in the making of new international laws whereby we can prosecute him at all points of the compass.

One good thing comes of this, the US found out what an utterly stupid system their giant database was, more so how utterly idiotic the indiscriminating access criteria were. There are hackers who get hired by security bodies to do precisely that in order to point out the weaknesses. They get paid a lot where Assange (not thru any hacking activity himself, as far as we can currently tell) provided the whole thing for free.

Quote:
Man visits a country for a scientific meeting. As he is about to settle in for the evening there is a knock at the door. He opens it to find a beautiful woman. She says, "I just wanted to know if there is anything at all that I can do for you this evening." The man is tired and denies her proposition. A few minutes later someone else knocks at the door. It's a fit looking young man. He asks again if there was anything he could do. He is sent away. By now the man is getting tired when he hears yet a third knock at the door. Not wanting to get up he yells, "what is it". From the other side of the door he hears, "baaaaah".
Ah, the French. They sure have savoir-vivre.
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06-Dec-2010, 01:58 PM #59
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Originally Posted by buffoon View Post
But the new technologies that you invoke are a challenge to tighten things up not to find new laws with which to strangle these technologies. Which won't work anyway, the encouraging effect that wikileaks is having will soon find copy cat sites sprouting up all over the place. Possibly with a more responsible outlook, as a result from the current controversy. One can only hope.
My proposals would not tighten things up on the internet to make it more difficult to use and perhaps useless. I want to keep the Internet free and open and argue against regulations. I propose that my goal would be better served by going after the miscreants who misuse the technology rather than making that technology harder to use. Fact is, it sounds to me that many here are advocating just the opposite. The growth of organizations like wikileaks will cause governments to create ever increasing strict security rules on the internet itself - all of it. Criminalize the behavior - not the media.

In response, the security goons are not going to allow removable devices on computers at these facilities and even not allow something as simple as a music CD. I went through this after Los Alamos. They removed our CDROMs, zip, and jazz drivers. They put tamper proof tape on all of the ports and the case. They increased inspections. It was a real pain and barrier to getting any work done. But, they basically let the idiot in New Mexico off the hook. I'm not saying we shouldn't always be improving security measures but the measures wouldn't have worked against someone determined to carry out classified. It will always depend on the people with access and those access levels.

I know you say he was the fence and not the thief. With property crime we penalize the fence. I propose we do the same with intellectual crime. It will be tricky to balance that with the principle of free speech. But I think it needs to be done. WL is easy IMO. They are the example of the extreme where we want to criminalize the behavior while we want to keep legitimate news organizations open. I think we could at least write some local laws that protect free speech. Heck, not all speech is really free - like inciting a riot vocally. We can do the same with electronic information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffoon View Post
One good thing comes of this, the US found out what an utterly stupid system their giant database was, more so how utterly idiotic the indiscriminating access criteria were. There are hackers who get hired by security bodies to do precisely that in order to point out the weaknesses. They get paid a lot where Assange (not thru any hacking activity himself, as far as we can currently tell) provided the whole thing for free.
They could have saved themselves the trouble by hiring contractors to penetrate this mess. The only real solution is going to be enormously expensive. It would be cheaper to hire someone to eliminate the problem.
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06-Dec-2010, 02:54 PM #60
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Originally Posted by thingamajig View Post
.........In response, the security goons are not going to allow removable devices on computers at these facilities and even not allow something as simple as a music CD. I went through this after Los Alamos. They removed our CDROMs, zip, and jazz drivers. They put tamper proof tape on all of the ports and the case. They increased inspections. It was a real pain and barrier to getting any work done. But, they basically let the idiot in New Mexico off the hook. I'm not saying we shouldn't always be improving security measures but the measures wouldn't have worked against someone determined to carry out classified.
Boy you should hear yerself. One can tell you're of the younger generation. Music CDs at work ferchrissake. You must've had it real good at Alamos. What someone of your blessed late birth doesn't realize (and how, since nobody told you?) is that flash drives, CDs or DVDs (CDRoms, zippies and jazzies) have no bloody business being carted around inside high security level zones. Let alone in and, worse still, out. Did I mention concealed mini cameras or am I taking you down "old fashioned lane" too much? So maybe they didn't search at the gate either? When leaving or, more importantly, entering (there lies the rub). Have the girls turn their handbags inside out EVERY time and (sometimes) their underwear as well (under supervision of female staff, of course)? And the heck with men's sensibilities in that respect (although rarely if ever under supervision of female staff).

No?

Well don't call it a security zone then.

Quote:
It will always depend on the people with access and those access levels.
Yup. And they used to be high grade professionals, even if they'd been turned by the villains and had had no previous tradecraft. And even then they often had to break the access level since they didn't have it and even then had to do it several times with different codes or by other means to glean some information tidbit each time which somebody else had to fit into the puzzle later to give an overall picture.

Ah those were the days. Not like now where any dumb kid of nigh on 2 million "accessors", he with a chip on his shoulder or some undiscovered emotional or sexual problem or possibly just consumed by boredom can have ANYTHING within minutes on EVERYTHING on a flash drive which he can't be searched for anyway since he could have stuck it up his butt before leaving and since we can't search him there what with right to privacy and all that.That's assuming he didn't simply send it out in an email. Not screened, not routinely monitored, not routinely investigated, not nothing. Heck, he was Army (I'm jumping the gun in assuming it WAS Manning here), he swore the oath.

Gawd give me strength

Quote:
I know you say he was the fence and not the thief. With property crime we penalize the fence. I propose we do the same with intellectual crime. It will be tricky to balance that with the principle of free speech.
Yeah, maybe but that's one of YOUR domestic issues. What's going to be far more tricky (and that's one of MINE) is how you're gonna make that stick with authorities in MY country if (let's say) wacor has stolen some of your information and passed it on to me. I guess we'd all have to appeal to Cookiegal.
Quote:
But I think it needs to be done.
Yeah, but WHAT???!!
Quote:
WL is easy IMO. They are the example of the extreme where we want to criminalize the behavior while we want to keep legitimate news organizations open.
And you think that's for you (the US) legislation to decide on a worldwide basis, what is legitimate and what is not, what is a news organization and what is not, what is both and what is not?
Quote:
I think we could at least write some local laws that protect free speech. Heck, not all speech is really free - like inciting a riot vocally. We can do the same with electronic information.
Go write local laws all you want and remember to keep them, locally. As for outside of local I refer you to my example of hills, range distances and villagers already clutching shovels eagerly
Quote:
They could have saved themselves the trouble by hiring contractors to penetrate this mess. The only real solution is going to be enormously expensive. It would be cheaper to hire someone to eliminate the problem.
I hear it could be that Assange might be looking for a job soon.
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