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Guns, racism, and religion


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ckphilli   (Chris) ckphilli is offline
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13-Jun-2012, 09:12 AM #1
Guns, racism, and religion
I've been following this story closely for obvious reasons: http://news.yahoo.com/auburn-killing...081019133.html

The short of it: kids have party, guys fight over girl, guy shoots guys. All of these kids were under 21, 3 have lost their life so far because of a temper...and a gun. Such a shame, and it's really typical. If I had time I'm sure I could find dozens of articles that are very similar.

So hear's the debate piece...at least the piece I'm interested in: at what point does a nation sacrifice rights for the greater good? Or is there a point?

I'm on the fence, personally. I don't have much use for guns, but some do. I think it's important to define "use" in this context as well. As in, "use" does not constitute recreation. A valid example of "use" would be protection from wild animals in Alaska.

There's also the argument that a complete ban would change nothing for the irresponsible (like the article). True or false?

Anyway, have at it.
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13-Jun-2012, 09:39 AM #2
Hmm... a good topic to bounce around some.

My question with subjects like this boils around not just "have guns; not have guns", but the circumstances surrounding having the guns also.

I might focus on America, since (IMHO; don't have the research) we probably have more gun-related issues than other places.

Are we spoiled?
Do we have other social issues brewing?
Is it something societal that we must 'strike back'?

First, under age kids, drinking, boys and girls; already a lethal combination. And then... a gun.

Now... please realize I'm not trivializing any death or the horror of the situation. Just thinking aloud...

Ok, so guy A and guy B get into it over a girl. Guy A gets mad and shoot guy B. Ok, guy B dies. Guy A gets arrested, charged, etc. But.... more people are shot. Why? What triggered?

I am a gun-owning advocate; probably always will be. But my main concern/gripe and such is this: while Guy A may have beat up, clubbed, or maybe stabbed guy B; I don't think he would have done the same to guy C, D, and E. However, having a gun makes it too easy to do a lot of damage, very quickly.
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13-Jun-2012, 09:48 AM #3
seems we've done this before.

keep 'em. The problems with todays society lie with the fact that kids seem to think it's okay to kill someone over the most trivial things. Not just beat the snot out of them, but instead actually kill them.

Ain't the guns fault. You could leave it on the table and come back in a few hundred years and it still won't have gone bang. Need to have someone USE that tool, sorta like a screwdriver.

Focus instead on why our kids are so quick to eliminate each other.
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13-Jun-2012, 09:51 AM #4
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Originally Posted by Drabdr View Post
Do we have other social issues brewing?
Is it something societal that we must 'strike back'?
I think the issues have always been present. But the availability of guns and the apparent lack of fear or understanding of death seems to be increasing. Credit to Tim also, he's been talking about shootings on and off for a bit now.
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Originally Posted by Drabdr View Post
First, under age kids, drinking, boys and girls; already a lethal combination. And then... a gun.

Now... please realize I'm not trivializing any death or the horror of the situation. Just thinking aloud...

Ok, so guy A and guy B get into it over a girl. Guy A gets mad and shoot guy B. Ok, guy B dies. Guy A gets arrested, charged, etc. But.... more people are shot. Why? What triggered?
Valid, of course. But I'm really more interested focusing on the problem as a whole, not just this specific incident. Take the Zimmerman deal for instance, and think about the outcome had he not been in possession of a gun. Not that I want to discuss the hypothetical outcome, just something to chew on.

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Originally Posted by Drabdr View Post
I am a gun-owning advocate; probably always will be.
Sorry, this made me laugh. Freaking Texan.
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Originally Posted by Drabdr View Post
But my main concern/gripe and such is this: while Guy A may have beat up, clubbed, or maybe stabbed guy B; I don't think he would have done the same to guy C, D, and E. However, having a gun makes it too easy to do a lot of damage, very quickly.
Agreed. That's a major concern of mine as well.
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13-Jun-2012, 09:53 AM #5
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seems we've done this before.

keep 'em. The problems with todays society lie with the fact that kids seem to think it's okay to kill someone over the most trivial things. Not just beat the snot out of them, but instead actually kill them.

Ain't the guns fault. You could leave it on the table and come back in a few hundred years and it still won't have gone bang. Need to have someone USE that tool, sorta like a screwdriver.

Focus instead on why our kids are so quick to eliminate each other.

Yea. I think you better hit on here what I was fumbling around about.

Again... just my opinion and/or uninformed perception, but we didn't seem to have a lot of these "rampages" going on in the 50's. Not saying there weren't shootings, but not like we're seeing today.

And... the whole Zombie aspect going on. I'm just thinking we have some serious societal issues, than simply the access/availability of guns.
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13-Jun-2012, 09:56 AM #6
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seems we've done this before.
We have, but it's been a while I think.
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Originally Posted by valis View Post
keep 'em. The problems with todays society lie with the fact that kids seem to think it's okay to kill someone over the most trivial things. Not just beat the snot out of them, but instead actually kill them.

Ain't the guns fault. You could leave it on the table and come back in a few hundred years and it still won't have gone bang. Need to have someone USE that tool, sorta like a screwdriver.

Focus instead on why our kids are so quick to eliminate each other.
Very valid points. But what if the option for quick murder wasn't available? Kind of like quitting smoking (not that I've been successful but anyway), if the cigarettes are available, I'm going to smoke them. Please don't think I'm trying to parallel smoking with death by a gun, just an example.
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13-Jun-2012, 09:57 AM #7
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I think the issues have always been present. But the availability of guns and the apparent lack of fear or understanding of death seems to be increasing. Credit to Tim also, he's been talking about shootings on and off for a bit now.
You know, it seems there are more shootings. But I might try to poke around tonight and see if I can find some reasonably objective numbers about actual shootings per population numbers and such.

Are we having more shootings, or are we just hearing more about it due to the massive media we are faced with?


Quote:
Valid, of course. But I'm really more interested focusing on the problem as a whole, not just this specific incident. Take the Zimmerman deal for instance, and think about the outcome had he not been in possession of a gun. Not that I want to discuss the hypothetical outcome, just something to chew on.
Agreed. I was just thinking that maybe if we do look at some instances, maybe that will give us some light to the problem as a whole.

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13-Jun-2012, 10:21 AM #8
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But what if the option for quick murder wasn't available?
moot point. My pop grew up in the 50's, he and his schoolmates used to put their varmint rifles next to their coats as the school day began. If it went well, they would team up and get some rabbit or squirrel on the way home. If it went bad, they put the guns down and blacked each others eyes.

So; what changed from 1952 to 2012? Because it definitely wasn't the guns. They were there the entire time.

Matter of fact, my dad still has his........
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13-Jun-2012, 10:37 AM #9
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moot point. My pop grew up in the 50's, he and his schoolmates used to put their varmint rifles next to their coats as the school day began. If it went well, they would team up and get some rabbit or squirrel on the way home. If it went bad, they put the guns down and blacked each others eyes.

So; what changed from 1952 to 2012? Because it definitely wasn't the guns. They were there the entire time.

Matter of fact, my dad still has his........
No, it's not moot. Just because your Dad and his friends had sense, doesn't mean everyone else in the 50's had sense. Keep in mind, I'm not arguing to ban guns...merely exploring the idea.
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13-Jun-2012, 10:48 AM #10
well, actually it is moot......I'd state that just by looking at the gross data for homicides nationally over the past 80 or so years. The problem is a societal one, not that we have a poop-ton of guns.
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13-Jun-2012, 10:51 AM #11
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well, actually it is moot......I'd state that just by looking at the gross data for homicides nationally over the past 80 or so years. The problem is a societal one, not that we have a poop-ton of guns.
No, it isn't moot. If we had no guns we couldn't pull a trigger to kill another human being in a second. That's a fact. I don't care what figures you provide.

Anyway, let's move on. This is interesting and speaks to all of our points:

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn....ool-shootings/
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13-Jun-2012, 11:20 AM #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
seems we've done this before.

keep 'em. The problems with todays society lie with the fact that kids seem to think it's okay to kill someone over the most trivial things. Not just beat the snot out of them, but instead actually kill them.

Ain't the guns fault. You could leave it on the table and come back in a few hundred years and it still won't have gone bang. Need to have someone USE that tool, sorta like a screwdriver.

Focus instead on why our kids are so quick to eliminate each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
moot point. My pop grew up in the 50's, he and his schoolmates used to put their varmint rifles next to their coats as the school day began. If it went well, they would team up and get some rabbit or squirrel on the way home. If it went bad, they put the guns down and blacked each others eyes.

So; what changed from 1952 to 2012? Because it definitely wasn't the guns. They were there the entire time.

Matter of fact, my dad still has his........
Same with us.....my dad and his brothers and friends (in West Virginia) carried their guns in their vehicles to school, and after school, often went hunting. As a matter of fact, kids were still doing that when I was in high school. I remember seeing guns on racks in the back window of trucks in the school parking lot. ALL of us had guns, it seemed like. I still have the 30-30 I used for deer hunting back then.

I remember knife fights, big brawls, rock chuncking......but I honestly cannot remember a single deliberate shooting of someone in anger.

A funny story........we were all at a hunting camp with a family that we did a lot of hunting with......they were the ultimate redneck family (and I'm not exaggerating, lol).....anyway, one day two of the brothers got into a argument over something (it didn't take much), and one was holding a gun in his hand and as he gestured with the gun (not point it, just gesturing with his hands and forgot he still had the rifle in his grip), the older brother casually got up, strolled over there, yanked the gun out of his brother's hand, whacked his brother up-side the head with the butt of the gun, put the gun down carefully off to the side and sat back down. Never said a word, but the message was clear.......argue all you want, but don't be waving guns around and being unsafe with a gun.

I think Valis is right on......too many young people nowadays simply don't have any judgement, inhibitions, respect, don't know how to control their tempers, don't care.......whatever. They need a good smack up-side the head and we as a society are not stepping up and quietly and calmly doing that when they need it. Figuratively speaking, of course. These young people feel no sense of responsibility for their own actions, have no sense of repercussions for those actions. They "get away with murder" until they DO murder.
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13-Jun-2012, 11:35 AM #13
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Same with us.....my dad and his brothers and friends (in West Virginia) carried their guns in their vehicles to school, and after school, often went hunting. As a matter of fact, kids were still doing that when I was in high school. I remember seeing guns on racks in the back window of trucks in the school parking lot. ALL of us had guns, it seemed like. I still have the 30-30 I used for deer hunting back then.

I remember knife fights, big brawls, rock chuncking......but I honestly cannot remember a single deliberate shooting of someone in anger.

A funny story........we were all at a hunting camp with a family that we did a lot of hunting with......they were the ultimate redneck family (and I'm not exaggerating, lol).....anyway, one day two of the brothers got into a argument over something (it didn't take much), and one was holding a gun in his hand and as he gestured with the gun (not point it, just gesturing with his hands and forgot he still had the rifle in his grip), the older brother casually got up, strolled over there, yanked the gun out of his brother's hand, whacked his brother up-side the head with the butt of the gun, put the gun down carefully off to the side and sat back down. Never said a word, but the message was clear.......argue all you want, but don't be waving guns around and being unsafe with a gun.

I think Valis is right on......too many young people nowadays simply don't have any judgement, inhibitions, respect, don't know how to control their tempers, don't care.......whatever. They need a good smack up-side the head and we as a society are not stepping up and quietly and calmly doing that when they need it. Figuratively speaking, of course. These young people feel no sense of responsibility for their own actions, have no sense of repercussions for those actions. They "get away with murder" until they DO murder.
I don't disagree. I do wonder sometimes if I'm getting into the "back in my day" age group though. I will agree with you (and you too Valis) that speaking to my son about "back in my day" seems to be way different than my Dad speaking to me about "back in his day". I've literally had a gun since I was born, my Grandfather bought every Grandson a .22. But heavy mentoring came with it...I don't think that happens as much these days.
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13-Jun-2012, 11:38 AM #14
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I don't disagree. I do wonder sometimes if I'm getting into the "back in my day" age group though. I will agree with you (and you too Valis) that speaking to my son about "back in my day" seems to be way different than my Dad speaking to me about "back in his day". I've literally had a gun since I was born, my Grandfather bought every Grandson a .22. But heavy mentoring came with it...I don't think that happens as much these days.
aye, there's the rub. I vividly remember not being able to sit straight after I pointed (pointed, mind you; it didn't even have the bolt action in it) my .22 at the horse shed. I was the process of taking down the iron sights, and just sighted over the top to see how raised they still were. Boom, no gun for a month, didn't sit right for a few days.

Mentoring.........very polite way of stating that......
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13-Jun-2012, 12:02 PM #15
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aye, there's the rub. I vividly remember not being able to sit straight after I pointed (pointed, mind you; it didn't even have the bolt action in it) my .22 at the horse shed. I was the process of taking down the iron sights, and just sighted over the top to see how raised they still were. Boom, no gun for a month, didn't sit right for a few days.

Mentoring.........very polite way of stating that......
Yessir...I think many of us have those types of memories. My most vivid was my Grandfather teaching me how to clear an M-1.

"Put the back of your hand on the ejector (I can't remember the proper terminology, he'd kill me ), and pull back till it locks."
"Look down the barrel, make sure it's clear."
"Pull back the ejector with the back of your hand, now depress the feeder with your thumb."
"Now, listen. Take your entire hand off the gun at once. If you don't, it will break your thumb at the least. Now, do it."

Fond memories. Miss him.
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