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capital punishment redux: EU vs USA views


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valis's Avatar
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24-Aug-2012, 05:51 PM #1
capital punishment redux: EU vs USA views
now, I know I have a lot of european friends on here, and I am pretty sure that most, if not all, of you brethren from over the sea are very much anti capital punishment. This is something that I, personally, have found fascinating; I am unabashedly for it. If you remove a viable member of society and are convicted, witnesses, etc etc, well, sorry, I don't think we can find a use for you, and I certainly don't want to pay your meals for the rest of your life.

That said, how on earth did this loon only get 21 years for slaughtering 77 people? Most of which were young adults. boggles my mind. If that happened here, I would not take any bets on the person actually making it to the courtroom in one piece.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/norway...2#.UDf2_qBT7KQ

Dunno. To me, that is pretty much an iron-clad argument for capital punishment. I understand this could open a different can of worms, and if we need to split this off into a thread debating capital punishment, so be it.....but I just can't wrap my mind around how this guy is going to be walking in 20 years. Lunacy.
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24-Aug-2012, 06:50 PM #2
Well, the SWAT team that apprehended him missed their chance. Considering that it took them a full 90 minutes from the first alarm to get there (thus giving him those 90 minutes to seek out those that were hiding and to continue the slaughter) that's not the only thing they missed.

This is one of the rare moments I would wish I'd been there AND armed but, as always with these theoretical cases, statistical likelihood is detrimental.

Yet, to return to the original issue raised, the majority of Norwegians doesn't want him dead. This results from a common failing that leads us (Europeans in general) to think that if we condemn the taking of lives to the extent that we do, we don't want it being done in our name (the people) either.

We are also quite obstinate in our thinking that, if the original biblical eye for an eye concept was designed to put some moderation on to retributions hitherto (i.e. not your whole tribe for the goat you stole), it could certainly be improved upon.

And by locking this guy up for life (he won't walk after 21 years but go into security arrest forever at the end of that term), he's removed from society, and same protected from him, just as much as if he were wasted. In all likelihood with him wishing he were dead long before that.

But without having enacted upon him the same barbarity that he committed.

OK, that leaves the food bill. But Norway, having pulled its mere 150 troops out of Iraq after 3 years, can probably afford to pay that.

We are also incorrigible in believing that the loss that Breivik and his likes have caused to society, are nothing near to what we'd lose, if we answered killing with killing.

Call it cultural disparity, one of its characteristics being that we don't shoot each other as often as Yanks do, Breiviks or not.








But I still wish I'd been there.
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valis's Avatar
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24-Aug-2012, 06:53 PM #3
glad you responded, El Buffo......you know you and I have been at loggerheads on this issue from day one, but one thing I can always count on from you is an informed, impartial view that I can learn from.

We'll table the capital stuff for now; IMO, there is NO reason he should be walking anywhere......none. Ditto for anyone who has removed viable members of society. And if they are kids, well, cheese graters and fire ants are in the future.

Question; what is 'security arrest', and why is that going to last the rest of his life? Will he have to interact with society, pull his weight (earn his food, in other words)?
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24-Aug-2012, 07:08 PM #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
..........Question; what is 'security arrest', and why is that going to last the rest of his life? Will he have to interact with society, pull his weight (earn his food, in other words)?
As opposed to the actual prison sentence (punishment) subsequent security arrest is already announced at the sentencing to keep notoriously dangerous individuals (those where any possible betterment is precluded from the outset) under wraps, once sentence has been served. "Security" applying less to them than to society.

For instance often placed upon particularly dangerous sex offenders (e.g. rapists) where no hope of betterment (healing) is deemed possible.

There is no parole.

Whether Breivik will be earning his food then in Norway I don't know. But probably he won't be leading a life of leisure, alone with the big hairy uglies that he'll have to accommodate (they love types of his ilk). But their offensive sight shouldn't be much of a problem, seeing how he'll mostly be facing the other way.
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24-Aug-2012, 07:12 PM #5
still lost, mon ami.......is he guarded? Halfway house, or full on jail? Ankle bracelets?

I guess what I'm asking is, after his sentence is served, how will he interact with the rest of society, who foots the bill, and what are his chances of repeating?

Again, I don't understand.......no big surprise there, but I seriously do not understand why this guy is still above ground. I know ignorance is no excuse, but that is exactly what I'm trying to fix currently.......and yes, it's a loooooong project.

plus the project manager is a wombat.
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24-Aug-2012, 07:25 PM #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
still lost, mon ami.......is he guarded? Halfway house, or full on jail? Ankle bracelets?
jail, full time

Quote:
I guess what I'm asking is, after his sentence is served, how will he interact with the rest of society,
not much
Quote:
who foots the bill,
the state, i.e. the taxpayer
Quote:
and what are his chances of repeating?
zero

Quote:
Again, I don't understand.......no big surprise there, but I seriously do not understand why this guy is still above ground. I know ignorance is no excuse, but that is exactly what I'm trying to fix currently.......and yes, it's a loooooong project.
as explained, we have different standards
Quote:
plus the project manager is a wombat.
They're the worst.
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24-Aug-2012, 07:27 PM #7
Quote:
The sentence of 21 years handed down today is not a maximum, but an effective minimum. It can then be extended by 5 year increments for the rest of his natural life. A fact sheet distributed today by the Norwegian authorities is unambiguous: “Preventive Detention is an indefinite sentence that may be given to dangerous, accountable offenders with the purpose of protecting the community against new serious criminality.”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...y-is-complete/

http://news.sky.com/story/975906/mas...as-private-gym
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24-Aug-2012, 07:29 PM #8
okay, beginning to get it......essentially he's going to be in jail the rest of his life. cool; stupid, but cool. Final question; why not just sentence him to life and be done with it? why the 21 year sentence? As our esteemed admin would say, je ne sais pas.
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24-Aug-2012, 07:36 PM #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlefield View Post
Quote:
The sentence of 21 years handed down today is not a maximum, but an effective minimum. It can then be extended by 5 year increments for the rest of his natural life. A fact sheet distributed today by the Norwegian authorities is unambiguous: “Preventive Detention is an indefinite sentence that may be given to dangerous, accountable offenders with the purpose of protecting the community against new serious criminality.”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...y-is-complete/

http://news.sky.com/story/975906/mas...as-private-gym
Actually it IS a maximum, Norway not having "life" in its laws. But I see what is meant in that he got the minimum possible (the max. 21 years), extended by preventive detention (that's the term I couldn't lay hands on).

I have to correct my statement wrt "no parole". In Norway detention has to be prolonged by judge order every 5 years for another 5 years.

It will be.
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24-Aug-2012, 07:44 PM #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
okay, beginning to get it......essentially he's going to be in jail the rest of his life. cool; stupid, but cool. Final question; why not just sentence him to life and be done with it? why the 21 year sentence? As our esteemed admin would say, je ne sais pas.
As mentioned, "life" does not exist in Norway, 21 years is maximum.

Incidentally, some states in the US, in cases where there's a feeling of not being able to make "life" stick, will have 100 years given. Judicial shenanigans but it could "stick" more.

End result is the same. Unless you're The Highlander
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24-Aug-2012, 07:56 PM #11
See? Learned something there. Didn't know that 21 is the max. Danke shoen, I believe the words are.

Tell you what, I just cannot understand why he is still walking. I've talked to the missus, she's right there with me. Ditto my work colleagues; granted, this IS Texas, but still, something like that wouldn't fly over here........

We need to figure out the whole 'different standards' thing. This is something I've touched on in the past, here and at Ray's forum, and I'll be dipped if I can figure out why (not why we discussed it, but rather the 'why' as it pertains to the mores of each culture). To me, it's extremely fascinating; it dovetails extremely well with my whole 'hive mindset' societal standard that dictates our daily actions.

There's something there, and I've been dancing around it for some years, and I cannot put my finger on it. Obviously I'm not going to state right or wrong; who am I to walk into your house and tell you your couch is in the wrong place (just as obviously someone who won't be spending the night on said couch, and that ain't my way)?

I guess my point is that I think there is something critical that I am missing; you got the brains, Ent has the brains, heck, just about everyone from across the pond has the brains to help me figure this out.

Beginning to look more and more like a separate discussion. Think it will fly as a solo thread?
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24-Aug-2012, 08:06 PM #12
Enough there to fill whole new thread for sure. History, culture, tradition and abdication of same, mentality, what have you.

Go for it.

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24-Aug-2012, 08:19 PM #13
done.......and I'm probably off for the evening. Given my sleep habits, will most likely be on later, but that said, I know it's not exactly sunny afternoon tea time for you over there.......

we'll see what develops, as Kodak would say.
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ekim68   (Mike) ekim68 is offline
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24-Aug-2012, 11:25 PM #14
Well I probably don't represent the views of Texans, who seem to have set records for the Death Penalty, so i guess I may represent another part of the USA view thing....Although I agree with buffoon that 'things' should have been handled at the time... The reason I have concern is the Judicial Process, and everywhere in our country has its own politics...History is replete with injustices...And, another thing, our society has gotten so violence oriented as of late that it seems like Executions are Reality Shows....
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ckphilli   (Chris) ckphilli is offline
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25-Aug-2012, 01:27 AM #15
I'm not sure I completely understand what you're debating here Tim. We support individuals with tax dollars continuously. We don't know their background. So how is it any different when we feed the incarcerated? Since 1976, 1,304 people have been executed according to: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/numb...nd-region-1976 . I don't know the source, but I bet the numbers are close even if they're a little off. Let's say those 1,304 people were still alive and in prison. You're talking about peanuts on the grand scale; principles aside, just dollars and cents (or sense, depending on who you're talking to).

The key is that the murderers are off the street. Period, emotions removed. One may want them to die, but does one want to pull the trigger? Would "one" pull the trigger? People can answer that however they wish, but unless you've been faced with the situation you simply don't know (and I haven't been, btw).
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