[Northumbrian]

I posted this on another forum, but I don't think anyone there is interested, so I'm adding it here. The post is long because I wanted to include as much information as I thought might be relevant, to save some of those, "Yes, but are you using a tripod?" And, "it would help if you mentioned what lens you are using". So it's ended up rather detailed.

I need some technical help here, so I'm going to explain in some detail in the hope that it's useful.

My father and step-mother both died recently, and both left collections of artwork. I think that many of them are exceptionally good, and I decided that I wanted very much to have a record of them. In fact I wanted one which would allow me to use them for amateur publication - in print as well as online.

With this in mind I lashed out on a new camera (partly retail therapy after a bad few months!), and bought myself a Canon 500D (aka RebelT1i) with the standard retail lens, together with an extra lens that I was told would be good for the purpose - an EF 50mm f/1.8 II. My only previous camera has been a cheap point and click, and really I am not that much of a photographer, but this project is important to me, and I will learn as fast as I can.

Part one is trying to deal with 60-70 oil paintings, many of them quite large - 80cms x 120cms is not untypical, there are paintings both larger and smaller than that. They vary from some very dark ones, to some very bright ones, and some with both vivid colours and some with large areas of grey combined with other areas of sharply defined colour. I am trying to photograph them outdoors, usually in a good westerly light, but this is proving a slow process - not least because they are currently a couple of hours drive away.

What I most especially need, I think, is a way of getting the best record I can now of the pictures, as some of them are going to removed by other members of the family who are not prepared to wait for me to find my way around things. I can work out what to do with the material later, providing I've got the best record in the camera now.

From a rather longer experience with graphics on the computer, I'm reluctant to entrust a good photographic record to the JPG format, so my choice of camera was partly influenced by the notion of using RAW, which I hope to be able to edit on the machine. It may be that I'm wrong or out of date on this one. I've purchased Photoshop Elements 8, but at the moment I'm simply playing around with the software which came with the camera. I have to confess that I'm finding this hard going.

I'm struggling with working out what camera settings I need for this work, and with which lens. I was recommended to use some of the automatic settings on the camera, but it seems that many of them will give me a shift in the colour to what the camera thinks I need. Clearly in this case what I need is the closest to what is on the canvas. Equally obviously, I'm not worried about getting a nice "background" - anything outside the picture will get cropped. I do need to be sure that there is no geometric distortion (above that which has come from storing canvas in a garage for ages!) at the edges.

Sorry this is so long, but has anyone with experience of this problem any suggestions as to what sort of settings I should use? Any other tips?

[DanC20]

This sounds like a tough situation. I have no expertise, but you seem to have the right camera, software and some good ideas.

I would suggest that you try to get a flat surface first of all, either on the ground or maybe a wall you could hang it on. Then I would use some lighting. Professional photographers use lighting to get all the normal shadows and stuff. I'm not sure if you can get it exactly like it, but maybe with some camera adjustments you can get pretty close. I've heard the Canon 500dk is a good camera, so perhaps the Manual or the website has a specific section to explain taking photographs of pictures.

Also, upon searching on google, this seems like a good website: http://www.diyphotography.net/taking...s_of_paintings.

Mostly posted this so this post doesn't die, because it seems like you need a lot of good advice.

[lordsmurf]

50mm f/1.8 will be good for this, yes. You'll need to be centered, at a flat plain with the surface. You'll need an even and controlled photo light source. (A bounce flash off ceiling may work, sometimes.)

I've shot paintings for many years now, including my own.

I would shoot RAW+JPEG.

When it comes to color calibration...
The LCD on the camera is unreliable, especially on Canon bodies. Computer LCDs are often unreliable, especially consumer models. Printers are unreliable, especially consumer inkjet printers.

The Rebel is a consumer camera, make no mistake. But it should suffice for this purpose. A full-frame pro DSLR would have been better, albeit more costly. It's sharper and has better noise control.

That reply at DIYphotography is some of the worst advice I've seen in a while now. Never take the painting outside. There is NO WAY that a pro wrote that.

I've even had to shoot masterpieces in galleries that disallowed any flash at all, because it does harm the paint. I had to tripod mount the camera, and remote trigger the shutter. I set WB in the camera to match the temp of the light in the showroom. And yes, that info was available from the curator, because it's a special temp of light.

You want low ISO (100 or lower), as well as high aperture (f/11).

The reason for the 50mm lens is because it's a super-duper sharp lens. At least double or triple the quality of even a good professional grade zoom.

[Northumbrian]

Thanks for the advice. I am already using a studio easel for getting the paintings upright (I knew if I omitted a detail, I'd regret it!).

Outdoors seems odd, but really is the only option at present. The couple who did some of these remarkable paintings were the sort who painted them, exhibited them, and then often as not ignored them. A few were sold, a few got hung on the walls and the rest get stored more or less anywhere. For the last few years most of them have been stacked any old how in the garage, where, at one point, the men from the council had to come to get rid of a wasps nest!

Meanwhile, indoors is impossible, as the house is being cleared prior to putting it on the market.

So what I need to do, and it has just this afternoon become more urgent than ever, is to get as many of these paintings photographed so that if I never see them again, I can get a good likeness to look at, for myself and for others.

I have been trying to work out for myself what the difference is between photographs of the same paintings taken with different camera settings. I'm finally managing to see the RAW images, but working out which was the best of the images is almost impossible for me. This is especially true of RAW images, since I don't know what the potential of different photographs might be.

So, I'm now desperate enough to ask for simple instructions. I'm taking pictures in a English summer light. I can read manuals well enough (lots of practice in that one) so that if someone says (as it might be) "Use the 50mm lens, have the dial set to the fully manual setting, make sure your lens is set to manual focus, use the menus etc to set the following parameters .." then I can do that.

Equally, if the best thing is to set the lens to Autofocus, and use one of the "expert" settings, fix the aperture settings and let it deal with the exposure, but with the ISO fixed at 100 - that too I can do.

But it now seems as though I am not going to have enough time (or energy, my health is poor) to learn by experience what settings, and achieved in what way, are going to provide the best results for what I'm trying to do.

Once I have the raw material in my camera and then on to a hard disk, then I can learn my way round software and do anything that can be done on a computer screen. But at the moment, I don't know what can be done, or how to get the best raw material I can under the restrictions which are unavoidable.

Sometimes I think that all I have learned is that leaning a picture up against the back door and taking a quick snap with a cheap point-and-click camera isn't going to be good enough! But getting from what's hopeless to what's at least adequate for working with in a matter of 3 weeks is proving very difficult.

Which is why I'm very grateful for the very specific sort of advice that has been provided (even when - as with the indoors/outdoors thing - I am unable to take it).

[Noyb]

I'm thinking you should shoot as many pics as you can in raw and maybe tiff .. If tiff is an option.

I was noticing in my new Photoshop CS5 .. There's some new auto lens correction features.
I wonder if this will help ??
These will be some huge files to pass around .. But I'll bet you can get some Elements or Photoshop help here...
If you need it.

[antimoth]

Perhaps if you shot outside in the two or three hours after sunrise or before sunset, you will get the better lighting. Nothing worse than the glare of the noonday sun.

As the big smurf advises, The Canon's RAW+JPG mode is it. You can view the JPG as a thumbnail, so you know what it looks like in windows and you have the RAW for archival purposes. If you shot at ISO 100, all you will need to do down the road is adjust the color, which is mainly getting the white balance close. The Adobe Camera Raw plugin that you can get for Elements 8 will handle that. The color balance tool in Elements is useful too.

Think of it this way. If you captured it in RAW, the Canon (and most any other DLSR) will capture the image sufficient so that anyone expert with the process can always recover the original color. Your job is to frame the shot, and get the focus and exposure on target. Camera will do most of the latter.

Agree with lordsmurf. Set the camera in aperture priority. Use F11 on your 50mm lens for this job. Wider apertures like f2.0/1.8 gives you less tolerance for focus errors. Be sure you understand how to focus. Use a tripod. If you shoot similar size art at one time, you won't have to change the camera position. The camera will set exposure and shoot. You might consider bracketing, which means exposing one shot above and below what the camera meter indicated. The camera should have a mode where it does bracketing automatically.

[kgfouts]

dvr surveillance system

Having worked for many years as a photo lab printer I can tell you that shooting outdoors in sunlight will result in a yellow cast to your paintings. The paintings should be photographed in a studio with proper lighting that is color-corrected. Even if you were to shoot the paintings on an overcast day the changing light conditions will give you variable color balance from one image to the next. If the paintings are valuable you might want to take them to a professional who specializes in this type of work.

[wowzer]

If you must shoot outside how about making a temporary tent of sorts and shoot inside of it.

White bedsheet sort of thing maybe lit from the outside and use no flash. With a couple of test shots you should be able to pick a white balance setting that will be very close.If the white balance miss a little bit it should be easily correctable.

The reason for the 50mm lens is because it's a super-duper sharp lens. At least double or triple the quality of even a good professional grade zoom.

just a small exaggeration by Mr Smurfy...

[lordsmurf]

I'm not exaggerating at all. A fixed length lens is at least twice as sharp (or more) as any zoom. This is common knowledge.

You don't want a tent. The color of the material will cast onto the subject. That too, is common knowledge of lighting. It makes for some cool tricks with flashes. Color hallways, for example.

[wowzer]

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I'm not exaggerating at all. A fixed length lens is at least twice as sharp (or more) as any zoom. This is common knowledge.

I was being nice in my first post .
Your quote of 2 to 3 times as sharp is a gross exaggeration.

Maybe in olden days...

There are many new generation zooms that rival "Prime" lenses.

I have a Nikkor 28-70 ED AFS 2.8 lens and at 50mm it will cut you if you look at the wrong way.

Also, as I'm sure you know, sharpness is very subjective and subject to many variables including personal taste, camera setting and "post processing".( a phrase that I hate with a passion)

I have many oil and watercolor paintings done by relatives on my walls that would be horrid if reproduced super sharp, but that's not the point of my response.

[wowzer]

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

You don't want a tent. The color of the material will cast onto the subject. That too, is common knowledge of lighting. It makes for some cool tricks with flashes. Color hallways, for example.

Who said anything about color?

[wowzer]

Tomorrow AM I willl set up a little test for fun and post the results.

hopefully the OP is still around.

[lordsmurf]

No, sharpness is not "subjective". That's ridiculous. Sharpness (as it pertains to optical glass) is scientifically measurable and quantifiable. When NASA launches a new telescope into space, they don't guess and just hope it's "subjective enough". No, it's measured.

A Nikkor 28-70 AF-S f/2.8 is a soft lens compared to a prime. The 28-70 also had a tendency to back-focus or off-focus, so you'll need an SLR that can manually adjust for that.

Beyond that, the older normal-zoom (28/35-70 range) AF/AF-D/AF-S lenses have not held up well under the strain of 10MP+ sensors, especially the 1.5x APSc sensors. The glass flaws become more obvious. That's one reason the 24-70 replaced it a couple of years ago.

The newer bodies are demanding better lenses. That's why interior lens barrels are now being coated in non-reflectives, and why extra coatings are being added to optics. Many primes, however, were such great lenses that they are immune to these needs.

Indeed, optics is the current barrier to resolution -- not the sensors. The sensors have gotten so good that we're now seeing the flaws in our glass. I have $1,000 lenses that have become unusable at anything below f/7, because the sensors pick up so much data.

I like and own zoom lenses.
I like and own quite a few of the Nikkor lenses.
But that doesn't change the fact that the 50mm is going to guaranteed be sharper at pretty much all f-stops. It's blindingly obvious at f/2.8 to f/5.6. By f/11, sure, it's harder to tell. But enlarge the image to 1:1 original size with the painting, and you'll know.

If you don't want to believe my years of experience, here's a second opinion for you:
http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/pro-nor...index-50mm.htm
http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/pro-nor...s/analysis.htm

This is all the same for Canon gear, too. It's not brand-specific.

If sharpness is really important, shoot slide film. It's not affected by Bayer filtering like digital SLRs are. (We really need to move away from CCD/CMOS type image capture. I don't know why Foveon hasn't caught on. Expense, maybe? Compare sensor types at http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d)

[aprillove20]

Well, Professional photographers use lighting to get all the normal shadows and stuff.

[slipe]

Raw requires you to just get the focus and exposure correct. Adjusting your color temperature in the software is exactly the same as adjusting it in the camera. Getting it a little warm or cool isn't a big deal if you are shooting raw. Shooting raw also allows you to stay in 24 bit using programs like Photoshop. Since you have a prime you should use it rather than the zoom.

Find lighting that is even and bright enough to avoid extremely long exposures. Longer exposures result in noise - even at a fixed ISO. Most primes have their sharpness sweet spot somewhere around f8 to f11. F8 is probably the better choice for noise. I would probably shoot at f5.6 or even f4 for noise unless I had very good light or the lens was particularly bad at lower f stops. Your camera can probably use dark frame subtraction to eliminate noise for long exposures on a tripod, but it is probably at a greater cost in resolution than going to a wider f-stop. Bright lighting is your friend.

Some people make decent lighting setups using inexpensive halogen work lamps from Home Depot. The color temperature is close to studio lighting and they have other uses. If I was in a hurry and didn't have decent lighting I would shoot outdoors on a cloudy day or in the shade - preferably near noon sun time. You get even light and can easily get the images to the original color balance at your leisure if you can't get it perfect when shooting.

However you shoot I would set the WB with a white card. That usually comes out pretty close. Your camera manual will have instructions for doing that. As long as you get strong even lighting without reflections from the canvas the shots should be good with the color close if you use a white card to set the WB.