[Peter Brayshaw]

Hello
I'm a bit of a lurker on this formum. I'm considering a new build and have a few questions about 64 bit CPUs. Currently I run a AMD 64 X2 4400+ on a ASUS A8N32 SLI Delux (nforce 4 i think). Anyhow This rig is about 4 years old and still performs well. Unfortuneately there is not much in the market for upgrades on the CPU. My mobo has the old AMD 939 socket. Sadly I built my rig and less than 6 months later AMD stopped making CPUs that used 939 sockets.

Anyhow I have been looking into getting an AMD FX-60, the fastest 939 chip they made, but the only ones I can find are used and selling for $150ish to $300. Hard to swallow when the Phenom II X4 965 black eddition is only $180.

So here is my quesion. When I purchased my last rig I was told that AMD 64 bit CPUs were better than Intels. The difference being that AMD 64 bit CPUs were true 64bits, whereas the intel chips were merely 64 bit capable. The difference being a dual core intel would be two 32 bit cpus working as basically 1 64 bit cpu, and an AMD dual core was two actual 64bit cpus.

Now 4 years later im looking to upgrade and I am wondering is this still true? I can't find a solid answer one way or the other.

I also was curious if anyone could tell me if the AMD Phenom II x4 965 is a 64 bit CPU or not? AMD used to put their little 'AMD 64' sticker on their boxes and website. Now they don't seem to as much. Also on their website it only says the Phenom II x4 is capable of running 64 bit software. Does not specifiy if its actually a 64bit cpu or not. The term "64 bit capable" seems a bit vague to me.

The other CPU I am wondering about is the intel i7 920. My question on this would be same as the question for the Phenom.

I was going to upgrade my current machine, then I looked at the prices of hardware. Seems silly to upgrade now when CPUs are so cheap. I already have a copy of WIN7 64 bit. I currently run Xp x64 and love it. I would like my next rig to be optimized for a 64 bit os, and therfore want to pick the CPU that will handle it best.

Any insite on this would be great.

Thank you

-Pete

[BG-0]

They both don't shove it in your face anymore as it's not a new thing, doesn't sell all that well. Both are 64-bit hardware.
However, I would say your real comparison is between i5 750 or i7 860 and Phenom II x4 955. i7 920 is very much over the price point of Phenom IIs, so it's not really comparable. Plus, you pay a lot extra for the X58 motherboard (~200$ and up, when solid P55 boards are around 130-140$) and triple channel memory which in most cases is not really even beneficial.
What's your budget? What's included in that budget? Gaming? A lot? Other purposes (video editing? Music production?)

[prunejuice]

It's hard to find a processor these days that isn't 64 bit.

[Compiler]

All current desktop CPUs on the market have 64bit memory access. Netbook class CPUs (ATOM, etc) are based on smaller and older tech with goals of using 1~2GB of RAM. To promote "64bit" would be like a stick on the box of your computer in BOLD letters saying "MOUSE INCLUDED!!"

Depending on your uses and budget - you may not notice the difference between a $100 CPU and a $300~600 CPU.
Check out this chart: http://www.anandtech.com/bench/default.aspx?b=2&c=1 And yes, its not worth spending $150~300 for an OLD FX when todays $65~80 CPUs would be faster. Then simply spend $80~90 for a mobo and $80~100 for 4 GB of RAM.

For most people, a typical $60~80 AMD X2 (dual core) CPU is more than enough.

I've just delivered a desktop to replace one I built 6 years ago (939). The AMD X2 550 (3.1Ghz) was $85. Its a modern day "FX" cpu in that its unlocked. I'm doing burn test still, but currently its running 3.2Ghz and the kicker? Through BIOS I have activated the 2 other cores! So yea, for $85 I picked up a quad core CPU.

AMD makes a lot of CPU and theres demand & market for the X2 550 & 550, so they disable 2 of the cores.

[Peter Brayshaw]

Thank you for the good info so far. So either chip will be a true 64bit cpu? I was also curious if my statement about intels earlier chips is infact correct? That was the way it was always explained to me.

The intel i7920 is not a bad deal. $280 on newegg and a few others. I have read with some over clocking it can run faster then the 975 extreme. I don't really do much OCing but it would be fun to try. (I know it requires extra cooling for that) The mobo for this guy however is much more expensive.

The 965 Black Edition looks pretty nice too. Probably more then enough for what I want to do, and I have read where it also has a lot of over clocking potential, especially since it is unlocked. I am assuming the 965 BE is faster then the X2 550?

I do a good deal of gaming on my machine, plus music, movies, work etc etc etc. No crazy movie edditing but once in a while I will write music on my machine. I have heard this is an area where the intel would be superior but I don't do it enough to worry about. No music projects in the foreseeable future.

In the past I was very happy with my old P4 1.7GHz, as well as my AMD 4400+. My budget if I do go ahead with this would be no more then $1700, but will shoot much lower. I already have a system that would be greate priced out at about $1350 which includes a very pricey case. With a less expensive case it will probably drop to $1100 or less.

I will post my current specs vs my propsed upgrade later. Gotta get back to work

-Pete

[Peter Brayshaw]

Here is what I have currently....

AMD 64 X2 4400+
ASUS A8N32SLI-Delux
4 GB Corsair XMS Memory
EVGA 7800 GTX (had SLI for a short while but one burnt out)
BFGTech 550W PSU
WD 120 GB EIDE - storage
2x WD 74 GB 10,000 RPM SATA in raid 0 -system
XP x64

Here is what I would like to upgrade to...

AMD Phenom II X$ 965 BE
Gigabyte GA-790FXTA-UD5 (or something similar from ASUS)
G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
EVGA 01G-P3-1158-TR GeForce GTS 250 1GB
Corsair CMPSU-850HX 850W PSU
WD Caviar Green 500GB SATA - Storage
2x WD 74 GB 10,000 RPM SATA in raid 0 -system
Win7 64

And for the case I am looking at the ZALMAN Z-MACHINE GT1000-B, although there are several others out there that are a good bit cheaper that I like too.


Right now my system runs well. Stable, smooth and quick. The only time it bogs down a bit is when I run newer games that were made for DX10 or software that requires somethign with a little more power then a 4400+. The plan was always to upgrade the cpu, but with the new ones being so cheap, it seems more cost effective to invest in a new system. As I mentioned I liked xp64 very much, and have heard great things about 2in 7 64. I would like my next machine to be as reliable as my current one.


-Pete

[BG-0]

i7 920 itself is cheap, true, but as mentioned you're paying almost as much for a motherboard that supports it, and has absolutely no useful features to justify that.
With that budget, I would go for an Intel LGA1156 setup.
Mobo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128412
RAM: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145260 (what you listed is just as fine.)
CPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115214 or http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115215 (overclocks to around the same performance)
PSU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139006 (no real point in modular PSUs, and you don't need a 850 W one. With your budget, you're very able to get a case where there's so good cable managing systems that a non-modular PSU will look better than a modular one, and will have as little cable mess)
For graphics, this is a gaming card: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814150442 The GTS250 is not a good deal... 2 years warranty so it's a generic rebranded card instead of the regular quality EVGAs. If you really think you don't want high settings at a decent resolution: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814150447 DX11 capable and better performance than GTS250. Or same performance at a lower price without a 24-hour sale... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102824
For HDD, I'd really suggest this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822152181 Same price, faster (actually as fast or faster as/than one of your WD Raptors)

If you persist on the AMD route, change mobo to: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128398
And get a Phenom II x4 955, the 965 is the same chip, very overprice for the non-existent benefit over the 955..

[Compiler]

Too bad newegg won't sell this case anymore ($285) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-027-_-Product But it can be bought elsewhere... I've built one.

- I'd go with only a Gigabyte board, I haven't touched ASUS in a long time since their quality went down.
- Video card: ATI 5770 or 5850 ($150 / $300) DX11. The GTS250 is a 9800GT which is a 8800GT. Nvidia is playing name games so bad, the GT310 is 100% the same as the GT210.

- Heres a review/chart of the 57xx, 58xx and some GF cards: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3658&p=5

- Mobo again: SLI and CF is still a bit over-rated... but you can get a 785 chipset board with CF (8x8) for $100... otherwise CPU performance will be the same. Also, you cannot put in two GeForce cards onto that board or most intels.

- $85 for what is basically an X4 955... or $170 for the X465... your call (Of course its not guaranteed that all X2 550/555 will give you an X4 - but most people are getting X4s)

- I'd go with the 750watt PSU.... If you really want to do Crossfire with a 58xx card, the 850 may not be enough. More research on your part.

G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)

If possible, get the one with the fancy cooling...

WD Caviar Green 500GB SATA - Storage
2x WD 74 GB 10,000 RPM SATA in raid 0 -system
Win7 64

- I'd go with a Seagate 1TB drive for $90~100. Power savings isn't that great and nothing compared to the power hungry high end video cards. Its quieter (but might not matter with high end cards) and faster...

- Using the old drives? If you want a high speed OS drive... look at the 32~40GB Kingston or Intel drives and maybe OCZ (make sure they have TRIM). Then use the 1TB drive for your games and data. Partition drive into: Data & Games at least. I'd use a 3rd partition for Media files (videos, music). BTW: intel won't do music any better than AMD... thats like saying Mustang will do 60MPH better than a Camaro. Such an SSD will cost you $100~165.

- 64bit Windows7? There is little point in using a 64bit OS with 4GB or less, especially for XP. A 32bit OS will only see about 3~3.5GB of RAM.... but a 64bit OS with 4GB of RAM will eat an extra 500mb+ or so RAM just for overhead... it takes more memory to be in 64bit mode. If using Vista, 64bit and 6GB+ RAM is a must.

Costs:
$170 - AMD X4 965
$185 - 790 board
$100 - 4GB RAM (I've bought Corsairs XMS3 with cooling fins... very nice... for $90 - 1600mhz)
$100 - 1TB drivce
$350 - case
$ 30 - DVD Burner (SATA)
$150 - SSD drive (give or take)
$300 - 5850
$120 - Windows7 64. (It'll smoke XP) But you should get 8GB with a 64bit OS.
===================
$1505 Total ($1340 with X2 550 and 785 or 790 board that BG-0 recommended)



//////////////////////////////
BG-0 : The price difference between the 955 and 965 is about $15... 3.2Ghz vs. 3.4Ghz (default speed). But both tend to top out at about 4Ghz. What is strange is that the X2 550 is an 80w chip and the X4 955/965 are 125w. I'm guessing with the other 2 cores turned on, the chip is rated back up to 125w.

Articles: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...-cpu,2499.html
Unlocking: http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=3730

[Peter Brayshaw]

AAAHHH!!! I just wrote a whole respone and it glitched when i hit submit and i lost it all! DAMN!

I'll retype my response later.

[Compiler]

Hate it when that happens.

BTW, Opera is really good about going back (press back button) and all the text is still there. It happens to me about 2-3 times a month. If I was using IE... gone.

Sometimes it can happen during a maintenance situation or a power loss.

[Peter Brayshaw]

Alas I am writting from my desk at work and I am stuck on IE... Half the net here is slow... the other half is blocked... and we aren't allowed to use other software like Opera, Chrome or Firefox(which i dislike anyway) because it violates our policy blah blah blah.

So here is what I hate typed before...

Why the i7-860 or i5-750 over the i7-920? Everything I have read says the i7-920 is the one to go with based on peformance price and the fact that it can OC to outperform the 975 extreme.

AMD is said to be releasing their 6 core CPU soon. It is rumored that it will also be AM2/AM3 socket. So if I go 965 BE that leaves some good upgrade options. I also like the fact that the 965 has lots of OC potential. I have never done much OCing before but always wanted to get into it. I also kind of want an excuse to do water cooling... not because i think its better or need it, but because i like to tinker with things like that (i know that might seem strange).

For the GPU i was just looking for something to get me by for now. I ultimately want a DX11 card, but I would like to wait until there are a few more on the market, so selection and price might be a bit better. Also I haven't had an ATI card since 2000/2001. Back then their drivers were horrible. I upgraded to an nVidia ti4600. Great card. When I got my next rig, nVidia was on top as far as performance went. EVGA/nvidia have done me well. I was going to contiune down that road. Have the drivers for ATI improved? I have heard they are better but no first hand experience.

Also back in the day nvidia and AMD used to mesh well. Now AMD owns ATI and I have heard the two work well together now. I have also heard AMD was still working on projects with nvidia. Anyone know the scoop on this?

As far as HDs go, solid state is a little two pricey for me at the moment. When the prices drop a bit more I will jump on board. Probably going to stick with the raptors for now. I know they aren't the fastest things on the block any more but they still peform well and I have had good luck with WD.

That samsung drive looks pretty sweet, but I am wondering? How is it any faster then any other 3 GB/s drive? I mean 3.0 GB/s is 3 GB/s right? How are samsung drives for quality and reliability?


When it comes to 64 bit OS using roughly 500Mb more memory I disagree. I currently run XP x64 and it runs about the same as XP pro did (32 bit). My memory "footprint" is about 400-460 Mb. I had win7 64 beta installed for a while and that only used about 800-900 MB which is more, but its a newer shinier bigger OS, so I would expect it to use a little bit more.

-Pete

[Compiler]

- IT dept sounds unimpressive.

- All new AMD CPUs are Socket AM3. But the CPUs fit AM2+ boards. The X2 550 and 555 are most likely quad cores... since you're interested in X6 in the future.

- Forget water cooling. They all leak sooner or later. Sometimes get away without a scratch or sometimes just end up with a new boat-anchor. Running an AMD 3.1 > 3.4Ghz and the temps go up 1c. Others are running 3.6~3.9Ghz with the included cooler. if you want extreme OC - then you'll need Nitrogen... then you can hit the 8Ghz speed range... of course such a computer is useless for actual computing and can burn your home down Just buy a heavy duty high end $35~75 cooler... research that.

- GPU: well, use the ATI 5750 to get you by for now. It costs about the same as the GTS250 and its faster and has DX11. Drivers improved? 2000-2001 was about 9 years ago... We're not using P3s with TNT2 cards anymore. Both Nvidia and ATI have their share of problems. ATI always does monthly driver releases.

- AMD is doing nothing with Nvidia. They follow standards in which video cards work in industry standard slots.

- HDs... I don't know what you're doing... if you're going to re-use your current raptors, fine. But they aren't worth buying new anymore. Yes the VelociRaptors are fast desktop HDs... they pale next to SSDs. Hey! my SSD from newegg just came in... (opening box now) ooooooo intel X25. I wish it was mine to keep. Ah, that new SSD smell. Heres a performance chart: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ce,2518-9.html (then read whole article)

- HDD2: if you're using your original raptors (74GB) those are the original 3.5" Raptors, right? If so don't bother. Todays 1TB Samsungs, Seagates, WDs are so much faster.

And answer your question... HDD are limited by the mechanics of a motor... They still avg around 100MB/s. An SSD will easily do 200~250 (the most SATA 2 can handle). SATA 3 doubles that ability. Latency kills any HDD thou.

64bit OS: as you load up more and more 64bit applications, the memory usage goes up. But Win7 runs good either way. I've installed Win7 on very old AMD 1.6Ghz CPU with 512mb of RAM that still ran pretty good (better than vista with 1GB).

[Peter Brayshaw]

Our IT 'dept' is more like an IT guy. Our main network drive where we store most of our doccuments is 50 gigs. At this very momment it shows 130mb free. No plans to upgrade any time soon. No one wants to spend the money. A 1 TB drive is how much? The other network drive I have mapped to my machine is 60 GB. We get constant emails about the drives being full and please delete any un needed doccuments.

It gets better though... A few weeks ago I was involved in a Kaizen/Six Sigma event. (If you don't know what these are, consider yourself lucky) Basically some corprate heads came down and are attempting to 'fix' some issues we have. After 3 days of work we had to present our project to the powers that be. We had to get some more corprate people in on a conference calll so they could follow along. We were having trouble getting the speaker phone in the room we were using to work. Suspecting the phone was busted we checked with our IT 'dept'. He told us the line to the room we were in doesn't support speaker phone.

Speakerphone mind you, is a function of the phone, not the line... I was almost banging my head against the wall.

We went across the hall and borrowed another phone from an office. Lo and behold it worked.


More computer stuff to come later...

[Compiler]

Ugh... the issue with your company (sorry) is stupidity and cheap. They waste your time and their money with constant space issues. 50GB?! I have dusty 120GB drives I have no idea what to do with? I keep them as give-aways for computers I may build from left-over used parts. A 500GB drive is about $50~70 (bought one last week for $50) and TB drives are usually $85~110. geeze, a little bit time and money would save time and money.

At one of my clients, I've ordered some SSD units. The read speed is about 250MB/s (that 50GB drive is most likely around 30MB/s... I remember those as being FAST... for 2000). These are for notebooks.

LOL.... I remember an "upper management" type of guy was hired, telling me and others how to do their jobs. I told him I would be done by 5pm on a project. He said "no, you will be done by 2", "no, 5pm. With phone calls, customers, managing techs... it will be 5pm" I finished at 5pm.

After about 3-4 weeks of dealing with such a moron, I walked out. I warned the owner I wasn't dealing with such crap.
I went in a week later to get my check... the "upper manager" was doing my job... er, supposed to. He was in the office with the lights out with a head-ache, head in his hands. I was laughing on the inside. When I worked there, my office door was open most of the time - I can see/hear what other people are doing and they can easily come in to see me. This guy, his door was closed, always. I think he lasted about a month after I left. 13 years ago, and still friends with some of the people who worked there.