[valis]

how can there be good if there is no evil, JEB? Nothing to judge it by.

[JEBWrench]

Originally Posted by valis

how can there be good if there is no evil, JEB? Nothing to judge it by.

Why couldn't it be that a bad soul simply ceases to be?

Heaven and Hell, conceptually. are not mutually inclusive. Socieities and religions have rewarded good lives long before they thought to punish poor ones in their believed afterlives.

[valis]

Yes, you missed my point. If there were only good in the planet, you would have nothing to judge evil by. Sort of like that movie 'Pleasantville'; when all is right, what is wrong has no place to fit. At that point in time, 'good' ceases to become an option, and instead becomes the status quo.

[JEBWrench]

I think you missed mine. A reward can exist for something, and the penalty for not succeeding can simply be not achieving that reward. That is at its simplest, what heaven and hell are - reward and punishment.

And as such, the opposite can be true. Your reward for obeying the law? Not going to jail.

Now, if you're saying that the lack of entrance into a heaven-like plane of existance is, in and of itself hell, then you have me.

[valis]

no, I am simply stating that without evil, there is no good. And vice versa. There only 'is'.

Let's use your analogy. The reward is good; ergo, remove the reward. Remove the reward, you automatically remove the penalty, and instead are left with how things were in the first place. That is the only point I am trying to make.

If there is no balance between good and evil, at that point in time we have entered utopia.

[JEBWrench]

If you are rewarded for being good, the denial of it is, in and of itself, the penalty. You still HAVE the dichotomy of reward/penalty, and as such, a balanced system. An additional penalty is not required to maintan the incentive, if the present state, or even the complete removal of any state, is "bad enough".

[valis]

okay, we are still not on the same page. Remove good/evil from the equation. Remove reward/penalty. What is left? Not a balanced system, merely a system.

[JEBWrench]

Why are we removing anything? That's what I'm having trouble understanding.

[valis]

becuase if you remove heaven or hell, the other ceases to exist. You cannot define 'good' with out defining 'evil'. That's all there is to it.

It's like that old saw; define 'nothing'. Well, you can't. Once you define it, it is no longer nothing, is it?

[JEBWrench]

But, in general, most religions and societies with a belief in either a reward or a penalty believed in one or the other, not both. So, I fail to see how on a conceptual level, a reward for a good life and a penalty for a bad one are mutually inclusive.
Unless, you are specifically referring to the Christian Heaven and Hell, at which case, they are.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by poochee

Yes, millions of us!

Either go to Heaven or to Hell. It is an individual's choice.

...you're funny...

...next you'll be telling me that Santa Claus exist also...

[valis]

Originally Posted by Shamou

...you're funny...

...next you'll be telling me that Santa Claus exist also...

in a way, it is an individual's choice. Take the wrong decisions, end up on the streets, you are effectively in 'hell'. Other end, make the wrong decisions, be richer than croesus and still be married to someone you detest, guess what, you are in hell again. Metaphorically speaking of course.

[valis]

Originally Posted by JEBWrench

But, in general, most religions and societies with a belief in either a reward or a penalty believed in one or the other, not both. So, I fail to see how on a conceptual level, a reward for a good life and a penalty for a bad one are mutually inclusive.
Unless, you are specifically referring to the Christian Heaven and Hell, at which case, they are.

nope, don't think we are ever going to see what each means on this.

[JEBWrench]

Then start from the beginning. Why must someone who believes in Heaven believe in Hell?
Answer that question specifically, and I'll try and latch onto your train.

[valis]

Originally Posted by valis

nope, don't think we are ever going to see what each means on this.