[valis]

I've stated what I felt about 4 times. That's all there is to it. I think that without good, there cannot be evil. And vice versa. Let me ask it this way; does good exist in Hell? Or evil in Heaven? No. Due to that fact, they just 'are'. The status quo never changes. I cannot explain it any baser than that.

[valis]

as for why someone who believes in heaven must believe in hell, I don't even know how to begin to answer that. If you have faith enough to believe in heaven, yet don't believe in hell, I would imagine that you are an optimist and a Cub's fan.

[valis]

FWIW, I am not entirely sure I believe in either. However, I do believe in a higher power, but the concept of heaven (in the biblical sense - not in the gnositc sense) shoots reincarnation in the foot, and the concept of hell has degraded to bad SNL movies.

[JEBWrench]

Well, then I'm going to put it all on the table.

You said, specificially, that heaven and hell are mutually inclusive. But, when asked to provide an explanation as to why you state such, you immediately went to the removal of good and evil. Which are not directly part of the equation. If there's no hell, there can still BE evil. Why can't there be? There's no reason at all for this belief.

Heaven is, in essence a reward for living a good life. Hell is, in essence, a penalty for living a bad one. Hell is not to be confused with a destination for all souls who do not get into heaven, as, simply put, not every belief system follows this.

How can someone be judged for heaven if there's no hell? Simple. How can someone not be allowed in a stadium for not having a ticket? How can someone not be allowed in a club for not having cover?

Good and evil do not come FROM heaven and hell. They come from people in most beliefs. So, removing Hell does not remove evil. There still is a judging mechanism.

[JEBWrench]

Originally Posted by valis

as for why someone who believes in heaven must believe in hell, I don't even know how to begin to answer that. If you have faith enough to believe in heaven, yet don't believe in hell, I would imagine that you are an optimist and a Cub's fan.

In the business world, it's called being goal-oriented.

Having a destination, and striving to reach it. The price of failure is not succeeding.

[valis]

allowing someone into a stadium without a ticket is hardly like passing ol' St. Pete. You got it or you don't. Again, and I can't stress this enough, without good, there is no evil. Period. Think about it. There is no baseline, no benchmark; only evil. Ditto for heaven; no hell, no benchmark for what is bad. Now, that is not to say that bad or good my GROW out of a certain situation, but without one, there cannot be the other, again, as without one, all you have is the STATUS QUO.

laters, guys, until zen.

[Shamou]

You guys remind me of those blind people who were asked to described an elephant after they had tried to visualize it with their hands. They came up with a very different description... because they had 'seen' the elephant from a very different perspective. One blind man who had felt the trunk said that an elephant was like a big hose... another one who had felt its ears said that it was like a piece of cardboard... etc... same elephant... different perspective...

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis

in a way, it is an individual's choice. Take the wrong decisions, end up on the streets, you are effectively in 'hell'. Other end, make the wrong decisions, be richer than croesus and still be married to someone you detest, guess what, you are in hell again. Metaphorically speaking of course.

...to that, I can relate... to the traditional view/understanding of hell... sorry... I'll just have to pass...

[valis]

and I still stick by my guns in that without a hell, there can be no heaven. So neener.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis

and I still stick by my guns in that without a hell, there can be no heaven. So neener.

...not too sure about that valis... I've been told to go to hell many times... but no one ever told me to go to heaven...

[valis]

you, my friend, already have a seat front and center next to the All Heaven Band.....sad thing is, people like Laurence Welk populate it......Hendrix, Joplin, and Morrison are all a bit south....

[teengeekgrrl]

Originally Posted by Shamou

...not too sure about that valis... I've been told to go to hell many times... but no one ever told me to go to heaven...

Go to heaven!

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis

you, my friend, already have a seat front and center next to the All Heaven Band.....sad thing is, people like Laurence Welk populate it......Hendrix, Joplin, and Morrison are all a bit south....

Sheessshh... I thought you knew me better than that my friend... I am an inveterate strategic planner... don't you think that I have not given thoughts and planned my trip to the other side... well, I did, and here's the deal... on my last day, I am turning Taliban and I will blow myself off on National Taliban TV thus becoming a martyr... which will propel me to Taliban heaven with 72 virgins... now, with that, I won't mind a little Lawrence Welk...

[Omega_Shadow]

Interesting enough, I have my afterlife planned as well:

Day One: Beat the <CWLMST> out of Satan and become Overlord of Hell
Day Two: Play Shuffleboard (cause I hear old people play that)
Day Three: Slap God upside the head for being high when he thought up the platypus
Day Four: Poker game with the Fates (something tells me I am going to lose)
Day Five: Play a game of Counterstrike against Jesus. Going to be hard cause he saves. At every checkpoint....
Day Six: Huge Dinner with Gandhi. He is a real pig now if you didn't know
Day Seven: Even Overlords need a day of rest!
Day Eight: Open Schedule to be filled

[JEBWrench]

No kegger OS? I'm disappointed.

Ah well, see you for the Shuffleboard game.