[JEBWrench]

Originally Posted by OS

These people, are Christians.

I disagree.

Originally Posted by OS

They are not like you Vally. You have a faith and don't force others to do as you do and believe what you believe.

That's what actual Christians (who follow the faith and its teachings) are like, I think.

Originally Posted by OS

Follow blindly the church and its ideals and force your belief system on me or anyone else and I will fight you with my last dieing breath.

Funny thing that. The Bible has some strong views about forcing your belief system on others. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," or something like that.

[Omega_Shadow]

Originally Posted by JEBWrench

I disagree.
That's what actual Christians (who follow the faith and its teachings) are like, I think.

I find calling those like Vally, Christians..... an insult to someone like Vally. The majority of christians (that I have met, talked to) want to force you to act how they act and believe what they believe, by force if nessisary. And I have met very few people like Vally, extraordanary people of faith that are nothing like the rest of the barbarians that make up the ranks of the christains. If there was some great word to call these people other then those of great faith, I would use it. But I refuse to use the word "christain" to discribe them as that name is already soiled.

Originally Posted by JEBWrench

Funny thing that. The Bible has some strong views about forcing your belief system on others. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," or something like that.

Tell that to the guy that put his fist in my face

[valis]

excellent post about Pascal's Wager, BF. That's pretty much what I had in mind; it's easy to use logic to prove one's reasons for one's faith. It's the substantiation of the object of the faith that is somewhat lacking.

And valley, I tend to think of myself as more of an engineer type, and we like logic, and I personally love philosophy, and I took zero offense at your earlier post. However, having said that, I do know you, and know that you wouldn't outrightly insult someone even when provoked, so I knew you just punning around.

This is a very intriguing thread. We've got people from all gamut's of religion in here explaining things to each other. Learn more each day......

[NICK G]

On Pascal's Wager:
Homer Simpson once pointed out this to his wife Marge, "But Marge, what if we picked the wrong religion? Every week, we're just making God madder and madder!".

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by OldTech

On Pascal's Wager:
Homer Simpson once pointed out this to his wife Marge, "But Marge, what if we picked the wrong religion? Every week, we're just making God madder and madder!".

...right on...

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Flyer
The first thing that pops to mind is Pascal's Wager.

Very good post Bandit. When I mentioned, '...I think that would be a very neat trick... and I honestly would like to see it done by someone...' in response to, 'I can see how one can use logic to prove the reasons for their faith, 'I was thinking about logically proving the object of their religious faith rather than if one should believe in God or not. As I personally believe in God, no problem there.

As to the entire expose, my view on it is summarized in the following passage:

'Pascal's Wager suffers from the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy, relying on the assumption that the only possibilities are:
3. the Christian God exists and punishes or rewards as stated in Christian theology, or
4. God does not exist.'

[Shamou]

Thanks for sharing those last few posts OS…

In my opinion, sharing those feelings and experiences can be quite cathartic for you. One would have to be blind to ignore the fact that there is a lot of anger inside. Not a good thing to have since it does tend to cloud the judgment… but also not easy to get rid off since the wounds are deep and easily activated.

However, here, you are surrounded by friends who are willing to listen and offer support whenever they can… so, take advantage of it…

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Very good post Bandit. When I mentioned, '...I think that would be a very neat trick... and I honestly would like to see it done by someone...' in response to, 'I can see how one can use logic to prove the reasons for their faith, 'I was thinking about logically proving the object of their religious faith rather than if one should believe in God or not. As I personally believe in God, no problem there.

As to the entire expose, my view on it is summarized in the following passage:

'Pascal's Wager suffers from the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy, relying on the assumption that the only possibilities are:
3. the Christian God exists and punishes or rewards as stated in Christian theology, or
4. God does not exist.'

It is a false dichotomy. My main problem with it arises before that, as I mentioned in post 12 of this thread. It doesn't really address the question of what is, only of what one should believe in order to gain benefit.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Flyer in post #12
Pascal's wager basically said that one good reason for choosing religion was "just in case". If all those religious nuts were right, and you did not believe them, you go to hell. Pascal's wager basically said that one good reason for choosing religion was "just in case". If all those religious nuts were right, and you did not believe them, you go to hell. But if you decide to believe "just in case", then you have a lot to win.

...this is one part that I have major problems with: you decide to believe "just in case", then you have a lot to win.

...he does not address the part where you also have a lot to lose if you do choose religion... such as:

1. Living your life in order to reap the benefits of the after live... and thus missing a lot what this life can offer...

2. Being lead towards views of hate and intolerance along with retrograde views on science and the welfare of people... (think of people who believe that is a mortal sin to use contraceptives... and get stuck with 15 friggin kids...)

3. Think of all the nuns and such who have literally wasted their lives in the name of God...

...the list could go on and on... but, you get my drift...

[valis]

Originally Posted by Shamou

3. Think of all the nuns and such who have literally wasted their lives in the name of God...

see, shamou, this is where you and I could go around forever. You specifically state that our God is different for each of us; maybe their God leads them to this life, and thus what they are doing is what can make them the happiest in their lives. It's like pulling the plug on a comatose patient; who are we to say that being in a coma isn't the greatest thing to happen to us?

I dunno. When you state it that way, I think you are mixing your opinion in a bit much. But that is what is neat about opinions; everyone has one. Sometimes two.

[valley]

Originally Posted by Omega_Shadow

same here. Apparently I am sentencing my friends to an afterlife of damnation because I didn't tell them about Christ and bring them to our church.

I was once in a church where the pastor asked the congregation how they would feel when they got to heaven and saw the blood on their hands of the people who died and went to hell because we did not give them the gospel message. This was a result of his belief in free will when it comes to salvation. He believed that all you had to do was somehow convince a person to "choose Christ" and they would be spared from Hell. I sat for months listening to message after message about our duty to save the lost...but he never taught much beyond that. I didnt hate him for his views...he was a nice hard-working man and seemed to truly love the Lord but i feel that he really did a lot of damage by what he was teaching people. Can you imagine the incredible burden of thinking that people will go to hell because of you? You really wonder why some people will shove it down your throat? They are terrified that they are the reason others will go to hell. (only some people...I know others do it just out of old-fashioned false piety too)

Was told this by my youth group leader. Oh, and owning a Metalica CD requires an intervention with the pastor telling me what a damned soul I am.

I've also had a similar experience. When my older kids were little and I was newly saved, I was told by a Christian friend that the Disney video's I had for the kids were of the devil and disrespectful to God. So I threw them all away, not wanting to offend God and all (I never thought to question her...I just wanted to fit in at the time and everything was so new to me!) I was at her home a few weeks later and saw that she had some of the same videos for her kids. Talk about being disappointed in another person! There's a lot of people who get off on the control their "spiritual position" gives them. At best, they are misguided and emotionally needy themselves and need to have their egos stroked. At worst, they prey on the weak and exploit them in all sorts of ways, using God's name to hide behind. But none of this is God's fault...its mans fault.

Because of my experiences, I ended up not going to church for 3 years and chose to study with some like-minded friends once a week at their home instead. That is when I learned how to rely on God's word alone and to reason through the scriptures in a way that worked for me and I feel that I have learned a lot, though not nearly enough.

Faith and spirituality. I have nothing against. Believe in the bible, god and Jesus, the holy trinity and pray to your hearts content, and I will admire you for it. Follow blindly the church and its ideals and force your belief system on me or anyone else and I will fight you with my last dieing breath. Because every man, woman and child has the right to believe in what they want to believe and to reject your ideals.

Yes, you do have the right to believe what you want. Nothing can ever be accomplished by force. Its only garners resentment so its a waste of time and energy.

And I am ranting again. Maybe I should excuse myself from this subject

No problems...rant away. Just make sure the rant is helping you get rid of your bad feelings rather than feeding the flames of discord. You're never going to make people be what you want them to be. If you show contempt then they will only return the favor. I hope and pray that you can find peace about your past experiences wth people who have tried to crush your spirit. I also hope that you will still lend an ear to God's word rather than reject it out of hand. I'm not about to open a can of worms and try to correct some of the things you said in anger but I do believe that you are in error in some of the things you said about the Bible itself. But this isnt the debate forum so i'll just give you a big hug and say that I wish you the best that life has to offer!

Bandit...I'll try not to forget your questions (I really havent been able to give it more than a glance so far) but iI'll get to it as soon as I know I can give it my undivided attention.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis
maybe their God leads them to this life,

…good question… if I want to be consequent with myself I must say that we decide while God assists…

…however my point was not that… (I did not explain it clearly)… my point is that we have only one life to lead, this it's not a rehearsal, it the real thing. And, in my POV, we have one duty in that life and that to have as much as possible, a glorious life and in doing so, express our gratitude to our Maker and our understanding of his magnificence.

To put it another way, I know that you want Nathan to have a tremendous life because you are his father and you love him. Why should it be different with God. Are we not His children…??? So, that is why when someone talks to me about penance or leading a life of sacrifice, I get mildly (to say the least) upset.

I say, you want to glorify God, don’t get down on your knees and pray… have a fantastic life and He’ll be glad and happy for you.

And, as far as nuns are concerned… trust me, I have counseled many of them… I have seen their despair… you don’t want to trade place with them…

[valis]

Originally Posted by Shamou

…good question… if I want to be consequent with myself I must say that we decide while God assists…

…however my point was not that… (I did not explain it clearly)… my point is that we have only one life to lead, this it's not a rehearsal, it the real thing. And, in my POV, we have one duty in that life and that to have as much as possible, a glorious life and in doing so, express our gratitude to our Maker and our understanding of his magnificence.

To put it another way, I know that you want Nathan to have a tremendous life because you are his father and you love him. Why should it be different with God. Are we not His children…??? So, that is why when someone talks to me about penance or leading a life of sacrifice, I get mildly (to say the least) upset.

I say, you want to glorify God, don’t get down on your knees and pray… have a fantastic life and He’ll be glad and happy for you.

And, as far as nuns are concerned… trust me, I have counseled many of them… I have seen their despair… you don’t want to trade place with them…

Okay, you have me on the nun counseling bit. But while I of course want nothing but the best for my son, above all, I want him to be healthy and happy. If that plays out that he is a monk living in a stone castle in Peru, so be it. If he is happy, than that is what matters. I still feel that the nuns are doing so out of a HEALTHY desire to worship their god in the way that they most see fit, and that is totally cool by me.

Now, when the start cramming their opinions down my throat, at that point in time, we got a problem....

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis

Okay, you have me on the nun counseling bit. But while I of course want nothing but the best for my son, above all, I want him to be healthy and happy. If that plays out that he is a monk living in a stone castle in Peru, so be it. If he is happy, than that is what matters. I still feel that the nuns are doing so out of a HEALTHY desire to worship their god in the way that they most see fit, and that is totally cool by me.

Now, when the start cramming their opinions down my throat, at that point in time, we got a problem....

...as the master himself so pointedly says... complete agreeance...

[valis]

when did I become the master? I don't like being the master. I am more a student type. Master means you know something; student means you are learning. I am a perpetual student.......

To quote matt groening, 'I put the 'dolt' in adult education'.....