[Omega_Shadow]

Originally Posted by valley

Entire Post

This is why I respect you so much. You show a true faith and not a "follow the leader" attitude. You are a spiritual person and I envy you

My anger against christians is not against their faith, what they believe or even how they worship- it is how they are constantly trying to force those around them to act and behave as they do. But as you so wisely said, those things are better suited for a debate thread on the subject

PS: If you like, I would like to go over some of the good book discrepancies in another thread. You game?

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis

when did I become the master? I don't like being the master. I am more a student type. Master means you know something; student means you are learning. I am a perpetual student.......

To quote matt groening, 'I put the 'dolt' in adult education'.....

...you, my friend are the master of the "Socratic Method of Teaching." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

...you ask the pertinent questions or voice the appropriate comment and us poor s,o,b, simply have to do research (either in our brains or Wiki or Google) and learn...

[valis]

thank you, my friend.....that is one of the better compliments I've ever received.....

I need to ask; what is your educational background? I know you as chiropractor, but I've also seen you post that you've counseled people, and the language, depth, and meaning that reside in your words are symptomatic of someone with advanced learning in SOME field, be it religious in nature or philosophic.

If that's too personal a question, I apologize. I'm just curious as to how you got to know so much and be so gentle and soft spoken at the same time. Very virtuous traits, being able to keep the ears open while the mouth shut......

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis

thank you, my friend.....that is one of the better compliments I've ever received.....

I need to ask; what is your educational background? I know you as chiropractor, but I've also seen you post that you've counseled people, and the language, depth, and meaning that reside in your words are symptomatic of someone with advanced learning in SOME field, be it religious in nature or philosophic.

If that's too personal a question, I apologize. I'm just curious as to how you got to know so much and be so gentle and soft spoken at the same time. Very virtuous traits, being able to keep the ears open while the mouth shut......

...you are way too kind and generous in your assessment my friend... but I do thank your just the same for the very nice compliment. And since you ask, I will try to enumerate and describe what has influenced me the most...

1. My son. Pure genius. The kid has Master Degrees from five different Universities. He has been a fantastic teacher and mentor... a role reversal... he leads, I follow...

2. For over ten years I was associated to the Parker Chiropractic Research Foundation of Fort Worth Texas (who once gave me the title of Chiropractor of the Year) where I was fortunate to meet a great many intellectuals and leaders in their own fields.

3. I founded and led for two years "Motivatech Psychocybernetic Engineering" which was also a great source experience and information.

4. For five years, I hosted a French TV show on health... were I had the opportunity to meet and interview tons of specialists in the health field.

...and now, I am currently using TSG as a springboard to open new vistas and exchange ideas with terrific people such as: JEB, Bandit, help4me, and of course, the guardian of intellectual rigor and logic integrity... my friend valis...

[valis]

Originally Posted by Shamou

...you are way too kind and generous in your assessment my friend... but I do thank your just the same for the very nice compliment. And since you ask, I will try to enumerate and describe what has influenced me the most...

1. My son. Pure genius. The kid has Master Degrees from five different Universities. He has been a fantastic teacher and mentor... a role reversal... he leads, I follow...

2. For over ten years I was associated to the Parker Chiropractic Research Foundation of Fort Worth Texas (who once gave me the title of Chiropractor of the Year) where I was fortunate to meet a great many intellectuals and leaders in their own fields.

3. I founded and led for two years "Psychocybernetic Engineering" which was also a great source experience and information.

4. For five years, I hosted a French TV show on health... were I had the opportunity to meet and interview tons of specialists in the health field.

...and now, I am currently using TSG as a springboard to open new vistas and exchange ideas with terrific people such as: JEB, Bandit, help4me, and of course, the guardian of intellectual rigor and logic integrity... my friend valis...

yon bed calleth; let me stew on this overnight and see if I can post in kind on the morrow.....your intellect, my friend, is vast and staggering in it's modesty. You hide it well. You also have that rare combo of brains and drive; not many can say that they founded anything, much less something as vebally impressive as that. Will have to research it a bit.

And congrats on the son. But remember that he is but a reflection of his parents, both of whom obviously have their heads screwed on pretty straight.

[Shamou]

The question is asked... "Are we humans having a spiritual experience or are we spiritual beings having a human experience...???"

[valley]

Originally Posted by Omega_Shadow

This is why I respect you so much. You show a true faith and not a "follow the leader" attitude. You are a spiritual person and I envy you

That is very kind of you to say. Thank you Omega.

My anger against christians is not against their faith, what they believe or even how they worship- it is how they are constantly trying to force those around them to act and behave as they do.

Yes, I understand.

But as you so wisely said, those things are better suited for a debate thread on the subject

PS: If you like, I would like to go over some of the good book discrepancies in another thread. You game?

That sounds awesome, as long as you can give me a few days to catch up on some other conversations I am having. I have been ignoring Bandit's post and am in the middle of a pm discussion too so if you will allow me to finish up there first...?

[valis]

Originally Posted by Shamou

The question is asked... "Are we humans having a spiritual experience or are we spiritual beings having a human experience...???"

That the Teilhard dude? PKD mentioned him a few times; liked him quite a bit.

As for the answer, I got nothing. I would lean toward humans having a spiritual experience, but can also make an argument for the latter......

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis

That the Teilhard dude? PKD mentioned him a few times; liked him quite a bit.

As for the answer, I got nothing. I would lean toward humans having a spiritual experience, but can also make an argument for the latter......

Yup... and the guy was a priest... amazing...

Teilhard de Chardin quotes:

“You are not a human being in search of a spiritual experience. You are a spiritual being immersed in a human experience.”

“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.”

“Someday, after mastering the winds, the waves, the tides and gravity, we shall harness for God the energies of love, and then, for a second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.”

“Our duty, as men and women, is to proceed as if limits to our ability did not exist. We are collaborators in creation.”

[valis]

Originally Posted by shamou

You are a spiritual being immersed in a human experience.

this is the quote that affected Philip Dick so strongly. He felt very attuned to the differences between spirituality and mortality, and was convinced that we were spiritual beings who had imprisoned ourselves as a test to see if we could get out (the Black Iron Prison). Some have made it out, and are continously trying to assist others in helping them 'see' the way back to the One Spirit that we all comprise, but are actively being thwarted by both our inability to see and evil itself.

So if it is the latter (spirit immersed in a human experience) the question then becomes, how do we fully see the spiritual existence that we are supposed to?

[Omega_Shadow]

Originally Posted by valley

That sounds awesome, as long as you can give me a few days to catch up on some other conversations I am having. I have been ignoring Bandit's post and am in the middle of a pm discussion too so if you will allow me to finish up there first...?

Sure thing. I need some time as well cause I..... well I did something stupid

When I come back on monday we can start up a new discussion

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis
So if it is the latter (spirit immersed in a human experience) the question then becomes, how do we fully see the spiritual existence that we are supposed to?

...you may take this reply on the faith of these written words... or, I'll PM you names of people who can vouch for them...

...I have seen, and I have participated in a process where people have attracted a truly inordinate amount of success, joy and happiness in their lives. And, personally, I do see that as a spiritual experience because these people have been raised above the experience of the masses.

...there is nothing secret about that process... it's what I have been preaching all along. Seems to me that your guy, Michael Murphy, was into it also. But, kareist it's hard to get that through people's cranium... guess that people have been fooled so many times that they have become hard boiled skeptics...

...now, if you have another definition of "spiritual experience," I apologize. But, as far as I'm concerned, I don't care to see God (or not) ...I just want to be dang happy and feel good...

[valis]

Originally Posted by Shamou

...I have seen, and I have participated in a process where people have attracted a truly inordinate amount of success, joy and happiness in their lives.

...there is nothing secret about that process...

spread the light, O Shamou of Enlightenment.

Seriously. Where can I read some of this, or garner some more material to stratify my belief structure?

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis

spread the light, O Shamou of Enlightenment.

Seriously. Where can I read some of this, or garner some more material to stratify my belief structure?

Some reflections on enlightenment…

I never met anyone who claimed to be enlightened and I certainly will not be the first one. However I have seen and felt its manifestation so I know that it is possible.

And that is the first prerequisite… knowing that it is possible. It is possible but I know of no direct path leading to it. It is a bit like getting an education or mastering a craft or a form of art. It is an accumulation of knowledge that can take a tortuous route. That being said, I believe that I could give some pertinent advice and provide a starting point.

With every bit of knowledge and information that we assimilate in this growth process, we acquire a keener ability of making finer and more pertinent distinctions. That is, things previously learned will take on a new meaning that will lead to a more pragmatic conclusion. Or to put it another way, every time we go over something previously learned, we see it differently because we have become a different person and see things with a different eye.

All, that useless preamble being over, I would suggest the following material as a starting point. The following books should be studied as if you wanted to be known as an authority on its content… someone would could give lectures or teach classes on the material.

1. The Transformation of a Man, the Founding of Est by William Warren Bartley

2. Awaken the Giant Within by Anthony Robbins

3. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig

That should keep you busy for a few years… and by then, you should see the evidence of a growing enlightenment… which will be manifested in the following ways:

1. You will be at peace with yourself and the world…
2. Those near and dear to you will also be at peace and most of all, happy and feeling good… and that, my friend, is the ultimate payoff…

[valley]

Picking this up late. Sorry for my tardiness, Bandit. Yes....I did put it off for too long because I wanted to avoid confrontation.

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

Influence is not the same as control -

True.

The end result of flying the airplane, riding the motorcycle, etc. Whether you live or die in your flight or ride is not controlled by your actions, only influenced by them. It is also influenced by the actions of those around you and your environment. Plenty of excellent pilots have died due to their plane being hit by a sudden gust of wind, even though they were doing everything right.Wrong.

Sudden gusts of wind have taken planes down even right after the plane leaves the runway. That's what I meant by the pilot having influence, but not control.

Yes, I see what you are saying. I'm thinking we are getting caught up here in semantics.

Control would imply that you and you alone decide the location of your airplane. Influence says that you influence where it goes by your operation of it.

I think my intent in the earlier airplane analogy was to point to God as the wind and to point to where it touches down as your destiny. You seem to be focusing on the pilot and how much influence he has where I pretty much say it doesnt matter, God is in control and if for some reason, God wants that plane to land on a dime that He placed 15 feet to the right of the center of the runway instead of dead center where the pilot wants it to land then there's not a thing the pilot can do to change that.

So who controls your destiny? God does. But He allows people a certain amount of freedom within the limits He places on us. I wish I had better words to share so I could help you understand what I am saying. lol, then again. maybe these analogies have way too many variables to even try to make such a comparison.

But you do not know what choice I will make. You can guess what choice I will make and be correct 90% of the time if you know me well enough. But if you were God, you would never be wrong. It would not be a correct guess only 90% of the time, it would be correct 100% of the time.

Yes, I agree. God is 100% correct all of the time. He knows what your choice will be long before you make it.

Somehow, to me, offering someone a choice that you already know the outcome of doesn't really seem like a choice to me.

In this context, I do agree.

1) I haven't really looked into it that much.

I dont understand. If you are asking questions about how God operates (Is He in control or not?) then how can you overlook one of the core issues that God deals with...the whole reason for the death of Christ?

2) I've recently been reading about the origins of monotheistic religions from various sources,

whoa...surely you understood that I was asking from a theological point of view, didnt you? Maybe you can shed some light as to why someone like myself would take the issue of sin so literally? Does sin exist? Does evil exist? Is it just a concoction of the human mind? How did it get there in the first place?

Paine seems to think that Christianity is polytheistic. The Father, son, and holy ghost, the trinity, is a modified continuation of Rome's polytheism.

lol...i'm not going to go there with the Thomas Paine thing. If you dont mind, i'll just dig up the thread and give a link to it rather than delve into it again (if I can find it). I think I talked about it once with Plschwartz about 3 years ago...I think it turned out badly.

The history of Ahkenaten seems to verify this.

very well then. Lay it all out for me. I'd like to see this evidence, if you dont mind.

Christians added the element of Jesus. Later they added the element of the holy trinity.

again...post your sources to show proof that Christian added the element of Jesus and later the concept of the trinity.

There seems to be a natural progression to explain the inconsistensies of original teachings to make them fit with events that came later

Please elaborate. I'd like to see the "progression" laid out...to follow the trail of evidence, if you will, to see for myself how the original teachings were altered to fit later events. I thought I had a good grasp of the bits and pieces of Bible history, especially when it comes to the issue of authenticity but maybe I missed something.

Psychologists have noted similar patchwork in human memory. Before JFK was assasinated, he won by a slight margin , and many of the people who "voted" for him were already dead when they supposedly went to the voting booths. He didn't exactly beat Nixon "fair and square".

But after JFK's assasination, the number of people who claimed to have voted for him rose significantly from the actual number who did vote for him(when people were surveyed to report who they voted for). The percentages grew. It's easy to blame such a thing on pure and simple dishonesty, but there is also an element of memory alteration here not accounted for by simple dishonesty.

ah but the writers of the scripture were inspired by the Holy Spirit to relate the history of the world, as God wanted it related. What you are pretty much doing is flat out denying any possible involvement of the Holy Spirit, correct?

So I partly think that the story of the birth of Christ to wash away original sin was altered after it happened in order to better fit the rest of the story. Yes, Jesus did exist but as to the purpose of his life and death, I'm hazy on whether or not it was to wash away the sins of humanity.

Bandit...may I ask what exactly it is that you believe about Christ? Because outside of the scriptures, there is precious little information about Him. The secular historian Josephus gives a brief summary of His death and of His followers and the persecution they endured in His name (I think its in his book of Antiquities...if you want to know for sure just ask and copy the exact info so you can see for yourself) but other than that, you have very little to go on. So what do you know about Christ exactly? What portions of the Bible do you trust to be accurate and which ones do you deny? And when you're digging for truth...what measuring stick do you use? How do you test the truthfulness of anything that you are reading?

So, how does the "sin problem" relate to my life? I seek the truth. This means digging for facts from more than just one source and from more than just one viewpoint.

I've also dug for facts. My conclusions lead me down a different road. Then again, my conclusions are interwoven with faith in the living God. And that works for me! But it is by no means illogical, irrational or unreasonable and I will argue that til the day I die.

I have to ask you next...have you ever studied up on the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible? Consider the fulfilled prophecies of Christ alone from the Old Testament...how do you account for them? We know the dates of the OT books. Yet hundreds of years later, a Man comes and fulfills every one. Are you suggesting that every instance of prophecy fulfilled in the NT is an error in recollection? And do you believe that miracles happened during the time of Christ? If not then how on earth did He get anyone to listen to Him. If you study the history, you notice that He came on the scene at a time when there were a lot of false messiahs running around claiming to have the truth. So what made Him different, do yuo think?

As far as choices relating to ethics, I have tried to follow the Golden Rule.

The golden rule works great in theory but......

Sorry for bombarding you with all of the questions i've asked. I have so much to ask when it comes to people's beliefs and the why's and why-nots. I dont think you've ever told me all that you believe so please answer what you want and ignore what you dont have time for.