[JEBWrench]

Originally Posted by Omega_Shadow

Everyone has free will, and those that chose to use it meld the world around them to their own image and design....

...And look at me now...

And you would not be as you are now without those experiences. That is your own makeup that has pushed you out the door and down the road, so to speak.

Is this Fate that made me turn out this way? Is it Destiny that allowed me to become who I am?

Or did I make a conscious decision not to be a floor mat for the world and bent it to my own will? I say the later. I made those choices, good and bad. After I stopped feeling sorry for myself and accepted that there was nothing I could do about my past I changed my future with action and knowledge that I learned from my mistakes in childhood. And that is not the definition of destiny, that is an example of Will.

Could you have actually made a different decision? I think not. Your strength of character, you as a human being, everything you've gone through, paved that road you took.

For the record, I am praising your resolve here. But I wonder if you believe that you could've let yourself be that floor mat for the world?

[BanditFlyer]

Good choice OS

We are in control of our actions. But we are the product of things other than just our own actions, for example, great balls of fire descending from the sky, like in the case of Tunguska.

If you want a good life, I doubt Fatalism will get you there. But, if you are purely interested in knowing the truth regardless of it's implications in life, you can't turn a blind eye to it.

[JEBWrench]

The film Magnolia is a good look at how related co-incidental happenings really are.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by JEBWrench

Let's take this from the top.


What I mean, is when we take a decision, there is only one possible decision we could have made. The act of "making" a decision is only a culmination of a path, and according to experiences, desires, genetics, and outside factors, there is only one possibility. Thus, no real free will, even in our decisions. Ergo, our will is desined to us.

You ever choose something on a whim? Tossing aside all previous experience and knowledge.

hmmm ...

I don't like my answer there ...

A better one is definitely possible. This one's gonna be gnawing at me for a while ...

Originally Posted by Jeb

Assuming there is such a thing as luck.

Why would anyone assume otherwise?

What I'm referring to when I use the term is the simple random probablility of a certain occurance happening ... or something to that effect ...

Stuff falls out of the sky - luck. If you're underneath it, that's bad luck. Just a random occurence otherwise.

Originally Posted by Jeb

They were in the place they should been at the time they were should have been - through their genetic makeup, and all the seemingly unrelated sets of circumstances that occured forced them. (Yes, forced. Without duress.)

"For want of a nail, the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost,
For want of a horse, the rider was lost,
For want of a rider, the army was lost,
For want of an army, the kingdom was lost."

Fractals and chaos at their best - outcomes are specifically dependent on their initial conditions. And everything can be predicted when enough conditions are factored in.

What you've mentioned above sounds like pure determinism.

Originally Posted by Jeb

See above - bad at math? Don't take accounting. Why are you bad at math? Your brain doesn't handle numbers well. That's how you were meant to be.

I remember Arnold Scwazennegger writing about how his calves used to be his weakness - he did the same stuff everyone else did and it simply did not work.

His choice ...

Well, he didn't make the choice that your statement might suggest - bad at calves?, don't do calves. He did the opposite, and it worked. It just took him a lot more effort and time than it did others.

Ever hear of Rudy Reutiger? Or seen the movie Rudy?

And ... Wasn't Einstein bad at math?

Originally Posted by Jeb

Actions, yes, but reactions are instinctive and not directly under our control for the most part.

Human being have the ability to alter their reactions as well as their actions. Heck you can even train an animal and alter it's reactions, to say nothing of your own.

Originally Posted by Jeb

As for fatalism vs. determinism, I'm afraid the concepts of both are far too simplified for my paradigm. As being fatalistic inherently results in a chemical imbalance which influences your path - but not under your control.

Being fatalistic can be a huge relief - no responsibility, no worry.

[JEBWrench]

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

I remember Arnold Scwazennegger writing about how his calves used to be his weakness - he did the same stuff everyone else did and it simply did not work.

His choice ...

Well, he didn't make the choice that your statement might suggest - bad at calves?, don't do calves. He did the opposite, and it worked. It just took him a lot more effort and time than it did others.

Ever hear of Rudy Reutiger? Or seen the movie Rudy?

They had the accumen and the tools to get it done. Some people, simply cannot. There are, in fact, things I simply cannot do, and I acknowledge this. Not by any conscious decision, but by the hand I was dealt. So, instead, I focus on what I can do, and strive to do the best within my ability to get it done.

And ... Wasn't Einstein bad at math?

He was bored of it in school, actually, that's why he didn't give a rat's patootie about it.

Being fatalistic can be a huge relief - no responsibility, no worry.

Still, your mind doesn't like not having responsibility and waiting for the end; since it prepares itself, in essence, to go to sleep and not do anything.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by JEBWrench

And you would not be as you are now without those experiences. That is your own makeup that has pushed you out the door and down the road, so to speak.


Could you have actually made a different decision? I think not. Your strength of character, you as a human being, everything you've gone through, paved that road you took.

For the record, I am praising your resolve here. But I wonder if you believe that you could've let yourself be that floor mat for the world?

Anytime you start to think like that, you are treading on thin ice. If you presume that you are too strong a person to let yourself get down, you might just be headed for an ego-check.

Is that free-will? The ability to make an out-of-character choice?

[JEBWrench]

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

Anytime you start to think like that, you are treading on thin ice. If you presume that you are too strong a person to let yourself get down, you might just be headed for an ego-check.

I recall a signature saying about one's past dictating whether or not one can handle future experiences.

There's a difference, I believe, in getting down, and getting beaten. Personally, I'm not going to get beaten until I'm a pile of ash.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by JEBWrench

They had the accumen and the tools to get it done. Some people, simply cannot. There are, in fact, things I simply cannot do, and I acknowledge this. Not by any conscious decision, but by the hand I was dealt. So, instead, I focus on what I can do, and strive to do the best within my ability to get it done.

Humans can't flap their arms and fly like birds, our arms don't handle feathers well.

Focusing on what you can do definitely sounds familiar.

hmmm ... just noticed how I spelled Arnie's surname - apparently, spelling is not my strong suit - in that case, I give up on spelling

Originally Posted by Jeb

He was bored of it in school, actually, that's why he didn't give a rat's patootie about it.

I could swear he actually had problems with comprehension. Too lazy to google it though. LoserOLimbs would have more info on that.

Originally Posted by Jeb

Still, your mind doesn't like not having responsibility and waiting for the end; since it prepares itself, in essence, to go to sleep and not do anything.

Trust me, your mind LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVES not having responsibility.

I'm not suggesting you try this personally, as it could(and most probably would) negatively affect your life, but ignoring your responsibilities can really lead to some seemingly impossible levels of happiness, although it's been a while since I've ignored responsibility enough to get any happiness out of it(there's actually a threshold I've got it down to a science ).

[JEBWrench]

Bandit, you are physically and mentally capable of comprehending the English language and spelling. Ergo, you can improve at it. You have the capacity to. Not everyone can improve at just anything. Part of the accumen is devotion and desire, but even those are chemically and genetically influenced. I can show you families of people who lack drive. And I can assure you, you can't make someone have desire.

And while you might enjoy not having responsibility, your mind hates it. It atrophies through inaction like anything.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by JEBWrench

I recall a signature saying about one's past dictating whether or not one can handle future experiences.

There's a difference, I believe, in getting down, and getting beaten. Personally, I'm not going to get beaten until I'm a pile of ash.

Hmmm ...

Looking at your older post, I'm wondering if an attitude of being unable to fail(by choosing otherwise - by making choices that are out of character for you) isn't more likely to get you beaten than it is to simply get you down ...

Originally Posted by JEBWrench

And you would not be as you are now without those experiences. That is your own makeup that has pushed you out the door and down the road, so to speak.


Could you have actually made a different decision? I think not. Your strength of character, you as a human being, everything you've gone through, paved that road you took.

For the record, I am praising your resolve here. But I wonder if you believe that you could've let yourself be that floor mat for the world?

If you think of yourself as someone who was never capable of making a decision that would lead to failure, I think that could definitely make the inevitable mistakes much more dificult to stomach. So what might have otherwise just gotten you down, with that attitude might get you beaten.

[JEBWrench]

I never said I couldn't fail. I've failed many many times in my life. Doesn't mean I give up. I can't give up. I won't let me, no matter how much I want to.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by JEBWrench

Bandit, you are physically and mentally capable of comprehending the English language and spelling. Ergo, you can improve at it. You have the capacity to. Not everyone can improve at just anything. Part of the accumen is devotion and desire, but even those are chemically and genetically influenced. I can show you families of people who lack drive. And I can assure you, you can't make someone have desire.

Funny thing about that - makes me wonder(since I don't actually remember ) if Einstein actually had children with his cousin. Which wife was it that he had children with? Or was it both?

Wonder if that family produced more of such capability as Albert.

I know the Curies had at least one very influential daughter. She was actually quite harsh in her interviews with Ghandi, at least by today's relatively softball-ish standards.

Originally Posted by Jeb

And while you might enjoy not having responsibility, your mind hates it. It atrophies through inaction like anything.

I wouldn't say it hates it per se. Your mind will atrophy with disuse, just like your muscles. But I'd say it's quite an enjoyable process, nonetheless.

A disclaimer - kids, don't try this at home. It's all fun and games until someone gets an eye poked out.

[Omega_Shadow]

I have created a monster

I think I am going to sit this out for a bit. You guys are bringing up great points faster then I can keep up with. I'll jump back in later when I catch up

[valley]

Originally Posted by Omega

Are our actions controlled by some outside force, script or transcendent beings that plan out our lives in some grand screenplay? Or do we forge our own paths though the jungle that is life? Are we a product of our own choices and experiences? Or are we simply following the path laid for us?

Thoughts and Discussion.

What a loaded question. My two cents....

I believe that our actions are controlled by our wills, which is in bondage to the nature that is within us. Thats the core of it. From there, we allow ourselves to be controlled by society, by other people, by events.

I also believe that God is in control of everything but that He allows mankind to to make choices in certain areas of his life. But....there have been too many times in my life that i've witnessed God at work through answered prayer and by providing needs of people so I also know that He does "control" people's actions to some extent, even if they are not aware of it.

For example...just last night, I ran out of baby juice and Carl was frustrated that I waited so long before saying anything (the store is several miles away) but before either of us could get ready and go, my next door neighbo called and said that her dad had cleaned out their summer cottage and had gone back south to their winter home and had left a bunch of food stuff behind and she didnt have use for some of it. She wanted to know if I would take it off of her hands because there was way too much for the 3 of them....the main thing she gave? Apple juice! Her dad loves it and they dont.

Now think about that...you might call it a wonderful coincidence. I didnt even pray and say "God, I need juice", lol! It just wasnt an important enough thing to pray about....but there it was. And it was my little reminder for the day that God cares about our little needs just as much as our big ones. I dont think my neighbor heard a voice telling her to call me at that very moment...I dont think her dad heard a voice saying "buy lots of apple juice so you can leave it behind and your daughter can give it to the neighbor who will run out at a certain moment in time" but I do believe that God knows all...and that everything is under His control and that He does use people, according to His will, to accomplish things on this earth. I know it sounds rather self-important to think that God made 2 people buy then give me apple juice for the baby but its not. (I bet that He has brought good things into your lives at just the right moment too, even if you dont recognize it). I have also served in the capacity as the "unwitting giver" of a service or item that someone else has needed without my knowledge so because of those kinds of experiences, I have to say that we are "used" rather than "controlled" by an external force. And while God uses us for good, I believe that Satan uses us in a similar way to do bad. But beneath it all...what controls us, is the nature that is within us. (if that makes any sense, lol).

[johnnyburst79]

I believe that life is preplanned and that Deja Vu is a glimpse into our life's path. Deja Vu is a dream in which we see events, but do not remember until that time of them occuring, hence the feeling. Why we cannot remember them when we wake up, or at a later date, I dont know. But if we could figure that out, wow (at least, I think). So while I do think life is planned for us be it by the Fates, God, etc, me personally, I am going to enjoy the ride and keep trying to figure it out.