[valis]

Originally Posted by valley

maybe these analogies have way too many variables to even try to make such a comparison.

give the lady a kewpie doll..... dead on.

[Shamou]

the writers of the scripture were inspired by the Holy Spirit to relate the history of the world, as God wanted it related.

...today that process is described as schizophrenia...

[valis]

Originally Posted by Shamou

...today that process is described as schizophrenia...

actually, I think it is known as 'dictation'.....

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis

actually, I think it is known as 'dictation'.....

...actually, I did have a secretary who would take dictation when no one dictating... ...had to let the poor girl go when she showed up with the tinfoil outfit...

[valis]

Originally Posted by Shamou

...actually, I did have a secretary who would take dictation when no one dictating... ...had to let the poor girl go when she showed up with the tinfoil outfit...

and now she is working for mulder..... j/k, of course.

[valley]

Originally Posted by Shamou

...today that process is described as schizophrenia...

I'm not sure how you managed to arrive at that conclusion, lol. I said nothing about hearing audible voices.
The Holy Spirit acts upon one's conscience when He wants them to do something. That is how He guides us into truth. That is a wee bit different than schizophenia:

People with schizophrenia may hear voices other people don't hear or they may believe that others are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. These experiences are terrifying and can cause fearfulness, withdrawal, or extreme agitation. People with schizophrenia may not make sense when they talk, may sit for hours without moving or talking much, or may seem perfectly fine until they talk about what they are really thinking. Because many people with schizophrenia have difficulty holding a job or caring for themselves, the burden on their families and society is significant as well.

According to your "diagnosis", each and every person who penned the scriptures (approximately 40 of them) all had schizophrenia because they all claimed to be a mouthpiece of God and said that what they wrote was not of themselves. Odd that so many of these men went on missionary journies for thousands of miles, became kings, doctors, tent-makers, tax collectors, fisherman, farmers, sheperds...I wonder how any of them managed to hold a job, travel, teach etc... if they were all schizo.

So Shamou...does this mean we are going to start talking to each other now that you've replied to my post?

[Shamou]

...in response to Valley...

There are many degrees of schizophrenia. Approximately 1.1% of the world population suffers from it. See: http://www.schizophrenia.com/szfacts.htm

Now, most of these people have jobs and some can even be very successful. But, all this is beyond the point. My point being is that if someone feels that he/she is getting specific information from God, any logic and rational mind would see that as delusion and a definite classic sign of schizophrenia.

Now, I feel that your rationale for your beliefs in that matter can be explained with the following truism. "If a lie is repeated often enough, it will finally be accepted as truth." That lie (the origin of the bible) has been repeated and repeated for two thousand years and compounded by the creation of adjunct of physical (sites and buildings) and historical events that support that basic albeit false assertion.

Therefore, it is when only one can actually walk away from that existing paradigm that one can actually logically, rationally and finally discover the truth that it is all a dramatic and humongous sham.

Having said that, I would like to enumerate off the top of my head some of the direct consequences of supporting the God’s words theory:

1. I has sank mankind into a spiral or superstitions, untruth and false beliefs… therefore greatly affected the progression of rationality.

2. It has promoted hate and intolerance. Persecuted millions of people and caused an incalculable amount of pain and suffering.

3. It has urged people to partially neglect to enjoy the one life that they have in favor of hoping to reap a reward in the next one.

4. It has been an excruciating source of anxiety for the poor unfortunate believers in the existence of the heaven/hell tenet.

5. It certainly has demeaned the view that many of us have of God.

As to whether we will be talking to each others. I honestly don't know. I know for a fact that we will never see eye to eye and won’t ever alter each other's point of view… so I can only reiterate that I don’t know.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by Shamou

...in response to Valley...

There are many degrees of schizophrenia. Approximately 1.1% of the world population suffers from it. See: http://www.schizophrenia.com/szfacts.htm

Now, most of these people have jobs and some can even be very successful. But, all this is beyond the point. My point being is that if someone feels that he/she is getting specific information from God

Valley specifically mentioned that this was not the case.

Originally Posted by Shamou

, any logic and rational mind would see that as delusion and a definite classic sign of schizophrenia.

Now, I feel that your rationale for your beliefs in that matter can be explained with the following truism. "If a lie is repeated often enough, it will finally be accepted as truth." That lie (the origin of the bible) has been repeated and repeated for two thousand years and compounded by the creation of adjunct of physical (sites and buildings) and historical events that support that basic albeit false assertion.

As I've said before, I am interested in getting information from various sources. So what do you feel are the origins of the bible?

Originally Posted by Shamou

Therefore, it is when only one can actually walk away from that existing paradigm that one can actually logically, rationally and finally discover the truth that it is all a dramatic and humongous sham.

Having said that, I would like to enumerate off the top of my head some of the direct consequences of supporting the God’s words theory:

1. I has sank mankind into a spiral or superstitions, untruth and false beliefs… therefore greatly affected the progression of rationality.

Nah. Mankind is always searching for the next irrational superstition to buy into. With or without Christianity, with or without Judaism, with or without any religion. It's just the nature of the human animal.

If you look to the progression of rationality, you'll note that most of the people responsible for such progress (in the Occident, at least) have been Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

One of those whom we have recently been discussing is Descartes.

Originally Posted by Shamou

2. It has promoted hate and intolerance. Persecuted millions of people and caused an incalculable amount of pain and suffering.

Again, this is another one of those things which needs no promotion, since it happens just fine on it's own. Now that you mention it, civilization has promoted more hate and suffereing than any other concept ever invented, perhaps with the exception of wealth.

Should we ban those???

Originally Posted by Shamou

3. It has urged people to partially neglect to enjoy the one life that they have in favor of hoping to reap a reward in the next one.

Oh, boo-flippedy-hoo. Another tear in my bear courtesy of delayed gratification. I would think that a person of your interests would value a concept like delayed gratification.

Originally Posted by Shamou

4. It has been an excruciating source of anxiety for the poor unfortunate believers in the existence of the heaven/hell tenet.

Grades got you down? California has the solution for you - abolish grading, since all it does is make you feel bad about yourself.

Self-esteem is overrated. One of the Ivy-leagues puts out a magazine in which I read an article about the function of self-esteem in learning - non-existent. Self-esteem bears absolutely no relevance whatsoever on how much a student learns - none. What does bear a relevance is personal responsibility, a concept that those poor, unfortunate believers have had rammed down their throats. Boo-hoo for them - now their just going to have to put up with better results in their life - I guess they'll be crying all the way to the bank.

Originally Posted by Shamou

5. It certainly has demeaned the view that many of us have of God.

Which "it"?

Originally Posted by Shamou

As to whether we will be talking to each others. I honestly don't know. I know for a fact that we will never see eye to eye and won’t ever alter each other's point of view… so I can only reiterate that I don’t know.

Is that what Tony Robbins would do? Would he ignore someone who has a different viewpoint?

[valis]

tear in my bear?

well put, bf.....I agree with many of your points......now, separate corners, everyone. This is a rational discussion, and shall be treated as such. No biting, gouging, or hitting below the laces.

[valis]

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

Self-esteem is overrated. One of the Ivy-leagues puts out a magazine in which I read an article about the function of self-esteem in learning - non-existent. Self-esteem bears absolutely no relevance whatsoever on how much a student learns - none. What does bear a relevance is personal responsibility, a concept that those poor, unfortunate believers have had rammed down their throats.

That I disagree with. Self-esteem is tied in to confidence; I've seen people with low self esteem do things that 'normal' people would think stupid in order to garner attention from peers; i.e. drugs, sex, what have you.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Shamou

...today that process is described as schizophrenia...

an interesting discussion...julian jaynes, the author of a book called "the origins of consiousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind", attempts to make a case for the existance of schizophrenia as a remnant left over from the time before "conscience"

seems needless to say....but its a pretty controversial theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ori...Bicameral_Mind

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis

That I disagree with. Self-esteem is tied in to confidence; I've seen people with low self esteem do things that 'normal' people would think stupid in order to garner attention from peers; i.e. drugs, sex, what have you.

...Bandit is just having a bad hair day...

[valley]

Originally Posted by Shamou

There are many degrees of schizophrenia. Approximately 1.1% of the world population suffers from it. See: http://www.schizophrenia.com/szfacts.htm

Now, most of these people have jobs and some can even be very successful. But, all this is beyond the point. My point being is that if someone feels that he/she is getting specific information from God, any logic and rational mind would see that as delusion and a definite classic sign of schizophrenia.

So you dont think its a stretch of the imagination to assume that all of the writers of the Bible were schizophrenics...all 40 of them, over a period of 1500 years, all writing in perfect harmony with each other across time? I guess you really think Moses was off his rocker with him seeing God is the burning bush and all, right?

Now, I feel that your rationale for your beliefs in that matter can be explained with the following truism. "If a lie is repeated often enough, it will finally be accepted as truth."

I remember a similar "law" being taught by my Psych professor in college "If you define something as true, it becomes true in its consequences". Little Suzie is told that she is a bad girl for years by her parents. This is the truth in her mind. As she grows, it turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy when she acts out in a bad way. So the very thing that she defines as truth (even though its false) is "proven" to her and the odds are that she has no idea of her own part in it. And this is similar to what you think I have done in my Biblical beliefs, correct?

BTW..not to toot my own horn here but I took both psychology and abnormal psychology in college (where I maintained a 3.6-3.8 gpa) and got A's in both courses. So while i'm far from an expert, I can relate to where you're coming from. I've always been interested in how the human brain works and why people act the way that they do and at one point in my life, planned on going into the field of psychology when I graduated (which never did happen, unfortunately).

But back on track here....what you are suggesting is that i've been slowly brainwashed into believing that the Bible is God's word, right?

That lie (the origin of the bible) has been repeated and repeated for two thousand years and compounded by the creation of adjunct of physical (sites and buildings) and historical events that support that basic albeit false assertion.

Therefore, it is when only one can actually walk away from that existing paradigm that one can actually logically, rationally and finally discover the truth that it is all a dramatic and humongous sham.

well we have a problem because I went from unbelief to belief over a short period of time. I came to believe through a logical, systematic examination of the evidence. I would posit that it is you are the one who has been self-deceived by certain secular philosophies. I wont get into my opinions of why you allowed that to happen. I would also hazard a guess that you have never really followed through with a comprehensive study of the Bible, not with an open heart anyways. If you had, you might be more tolerant of people like me. I dont ask for your approval, only your consideration in the things that mean a lot to me.

Having said that, I would like to enumerate off the top of my head some of the direct consequences of supporting the God’s words theory:

1. I has sank mankind into a spiral or superstitions, untruth and false beliefs… therefore greatly affected the progression of rationality.

You are placing blame in the wrong place. The Bible does not make man superstitious. Man makes man superstitious.

2. It has promoted hate and intolerance. Persecuted millions of people and caused an incalculable amount of pain and suffering.

So havent drug addicts, murderes, rapists and other criminals who are far more prevalent in the world than Bible-beleiving Christians, who are promoting the gospel of Christ.

3. It has urged people to partially neglect to enjoy the one life that they have in favor of hoping to reap a reward in the next one.

You said this once before....and you never gave any specifics. I really am curious about what you think I am missing out on due to my faith. About the only things I have given up are all things that were no good for me anyways.

4. It has been an excruciating source of anxiety for the poor unfortunate believers in the existence of the heaven/hell tenet.

source of anxiety? How so? Faith brings peace and joy and hope. The ones with anxiety have anxiety because they dont obey the scriptures that say "be anxious for nothing".

5. It certainly has demeaned the view that many of us have of God.

I could say the same thing of you..I find your lack of support demeaning to my views. But I cant say it because its not true. My views dont depend on the affirmation of others and neither should anyone elses.

As to whether we will be talking to each others. I honestly don't know. I know for a fact that we will never see eye to eye and won’t ever alter each other's point of view… so I can only reiterate that I don’t know.

Fair enough. But I disagree with so many other people here and we still manage to be friends with each other. Dont you find it as uncomfortable as I do to take part in threads when we both have to carefully ignore each other?

Again...I wont ask for your agreement in how I believe but I do ask for some compassion and understanding towards me as a fellow human being. If you would please.

[valley]

lol...you guys all talk too fast. Its not fair to us slow two-fingered typers! This is why I cant keep up with any of you. By the time I get my post in..you've all moved on!

[Shamou]

In response to my friend Bandit who's having a bad hair day...

Valley specifically mentioned that this was not the case.

If those are God’s words… where would they be coming from if not from God…???

As I've said before, I am interested in getting information from various sources. So what do you feel are the origins of the bible?

It in my views a continuation of the mythologies…

If you look to the progression of rationality

Agree that most philosophers and logicians had religious beliefs but whatever rationalities they came up with was certainly not inspired by those beliefs.

civilization has promoted more hate and suffereing than any other concept ever invented,

Total nonsense… and not worthy of your pen…

a person of your interests would value a concept like delayed gratification.

I do but not to the extent of being irrational about it.

Self-esteem is overrated.

Try it. You’ll like it.

It certainly has demeaned the view that many of us have of God.
Which "is"?

That God is a lot more intelligent than the village idiot.

Is that what Tony Robbins would do? Would he ignore someone who has a different viewpoint?

He certainly would not lose his time on a lost cause. He would go out and make another million instead.