[poochee]

Originally Posted by teengeekgrrl

I'll jump in.

You all probably know that I'm a Christian... so yes, I believe in God. And Jesus, and Jesus's birth, resurrection, et cetera.

God does not control my life. He does not make any big or small decisions for me. He doesn't choose who I will marry at some point (or if I will). I do. He does not choose what classes I want to take. I do. He does not choose wheher I want pizza for lunch or the hot lunch they are serving. I do. God did not tell me to wear cargo pants and a Superman tee shirt today. I did.

God gives people abilities, decision-making skills, and the opportunities to learn to utilize those to the fullest. He does not predetermine our day-to-day decisions or our big ones. God lets us do that ourselves.

I do believe in some kind of destiny though. God can guide us in the direction that would provide us with a better life or situation than another choice in a paricular matter, but we can still choose to follow those signs or not. God can show me any sign in the book that I really should or should not ask a particular person to the dance, but Whether I do or not is still my own choice. If I do something right that has a result of my life being improved tenfold, it was destiny that the happiness lay at the end of that pth, not destiny that I followed it. Does that make any sense? I hope it does.

This is only my opinion. Anyone else is free to disagree.

I agree with your opinion!

[Shamou]

I have been a strong proponent of Spirituality in good part for the following reasons. I happen to believe that most of what organized religion teaches demeans God. First and foremost, insisting that God will only accept people from a certain religion is utterly unacceptable for me. Second, most taboos suggested are just ludicrous. Those would be too innumerous to cite… but let us just say that they are the ones that have nothing to do with morality and ethics. Third, citing that we must perform meaningless rituals to stay in His graces just seems childish and certainly not acceptable within the concept that I have of a Supreme Being. And, lastly, the intolerance shown by many religious practitioners seems to me unworthy of the teachings of God.

Spirituality, on the other hand is totally free of organized constraints. It is a path where people really do have free will and can truly express the nobility of man and the magnificence and grandeur of God.

[teengeekgrrl]

Originally Posted by poochee

I agree with your opinion!

[NICK G]

First, I'll admit I did not read all the posts in this thread so if this repeats anyone, sorry.
If I believed in God, jury is still out, I'd think Him omnipotent and all-knowing.
I figure He wrote the book and therefore knows the ending. You have free will to choose your destiny. But I lean toward pre-destination. Does one think God wrote the book and then willed Himself to forget the endings.
It would be contradictory to think of God as all-knowing and then think He does not know how you are going to turn out in the end or anytime in between. Maybe it is a game He plays with us. I'll get back with you when I get there to ask Him. Well, maybe not.

[valis]

Originally Posted by Shamou

I have been a strong proponent of Spirituality in good part for the following reasons. I happen to believe that most of what organized religion teaches demeans God. First and foremost, insisting that God will only accept people from a certain religion is utterly unacceptable for me. Second, most taboos suggested are just ludicrous. Those would be too innumerous to cite… but let us just say that they are the ones that have nothing to do with morality and ethics. Third, citing that we must perform meaningless rituals to stay in His graces just seems childish and certainly not acceptable within the concept that I have of a Supreme Being. And, lastly, the intolerance shown by many religious practitioners seems to me unworthy of the teachings of God.

Spirituality, on the other hand is totally free of organized constraints. It is a path where people really do have free will and can truly express the nobility of man and the magnificence and grandeur of God.

Okay, we pretty much agree on that. I have a hard time in God talking to a southerner with bad hair who is asking for my money. Yet Stephen Hawking can't get a break. Hmmm.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis
Yet Stephen Hawking can't get a break.

...how about a little treatise on Stephen... I for one would love to hear your views on the kid and his teachings...

[valis]

On Stephen? The modern day Einstein? Same problem that Einstein ran into; his views are so far ahead of his contemporaries that it will take at least a decade, if not 20-30 years, for his math to be proven, at which point in time we will have a vastly greater understanding of black holes, and hopefully, dark energy.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis

On Stephen? The modern day Einstein? Same problem that Einstein ran into; his views are so far ahead of his contemporaries that it will take at least a decade, if not 20-30 years, for his math to be proven, at which point in time we will have a vastly greater understanding of black holes, and hopefully, dark energy.

...well, I guess that if the math is that complicated, I would be better to just leave it alone... it takes all I have to balance my check book... so, I'll just leave those 'time square versus root canal' stuff to others...

[Shamou]

This excerpt from: http://skepdic.com/refuge/weird.html seems to be pertinent to some of the posts in this thread.

Why do some people have faith? Why do they choose to believe preposterous, incredible, improbable claims? Shermer's explanation in terms of hope, simplicity, immediate gratification, and providing meaning to one's life seems to cover most of the reasons for faith. But the desire for power should also be included in this list of fideistic motivators. Such beliefs give the illusion of control over things which are either out of one's control or which require diligent effort and intellect to effect reasonable control.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by moonmist

Oh............. did this thread get of topic??? ....... there's a surprise.. my bad

Boy Howdy!

I go away for 5 minutes and this place turns into civ-deb! Very pertinent quote, by the way.

I'll be answering some of the posts here in the "Spiritual, but not religious" thread, to keep the hijack at least relatively minimal.

Back on topic.

Originally Posted by foneguy9

I firmly believe we all have free will. We make the decisions that will influence who we become and what we do with our lives.

But the point that Jeb brought up is that the decisions we make are a result of the things we have been taught, the experiences in our lives, and our genetics. So ... it is implied that we could not make a choice other than the ones we actually make, therefore, no free will, since our genetics and environment "forces" us to make the choices that we have made.

Originally Posted by OldTech

First, I'll admit I did not read all the posts in this thread so if this repeats anyone, sorry.
If I believed in God, jury is still out, I'd think Him omnipotent and all-knowing.
I figure He wrote the book and therefore knows the ending. You have free will to choose your destiny. But I lean toward pre-destination. Does one think God wrote the book and then willed Himself to forget the endings.
It would be contradictory to think of God as all-knowing and then think He does not know how you are going to turn out in the end or anytime in between. Maybe it is a game He plays with us. I'll get back with you when I get there to ask Him. Well, maybe not.

Valley, I'd like to get your take on that. Does an all-seeing, all-knowing God preclude the existence of Free Will?

[valis]

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

Valley, I'd like to get your take on that. Does an all-seeing, all-knowing God preclude the existence of Free Will?

I"m not valley (nor do I play her on tv) but I'd like to toss my nickel's worth in here; IMO, the omnipotent God you speak of does NOT preclude the existence of free will; He gives us choices in life to make, and make the right ones, we are rewarded, and make the wrong ones, we are punished to eternal damnation in the depths of Hell itself. If you believe in that stuff, that is.

Ergo, there is free will in what choices we make. Sort of like those 'choose your own destiny' books from our childhood. And by 'our' I mean valley, shamou, and myself. The rest of you whippersnappers don't remember those.

The choices we make immediatly impact our future; should I take the time to turn off all the breakers, or just try to install this overhead fan as is? *zap*

Even drunk drivers, with this massive campaign against it, know they can't drive and still do so. If you take every bad action, trace it backwards, you are bound to fine one defining moment that led directly to that event.

Ironically enough, ditto for the good stuff. The trick with the good stuff, however, is recognizing it for what it is. As my grandad used to say, 'a kick in the butt, while unpleasant, is still a step forward'.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by valis
and make the wrong ones, we are punished to eternal damnation in the depths of Hell itself. If you believe in that stuff, that is.

...it it possible that in this day and age, someone could still believe in Hell...???

[valis]

well, if one believes in heaven, one must believe in hell.

[JEBWrench]

Originally Posted by valis

well, if one believes in heaven, one must believe in hell.

When did they become mutually inclusive?

[poochee]

Originally Posted by Shamou

...it it possible that in this day and age, someone could still believe in Hell...???

Yes, millions of us!

Either go to Heaven or to Hell. It is an individual's choice.