[Omega_Shadow]

Are our actions controlled by some outside force, script or transcendent beings that plan out our lives in some grand screenplay? Or do we forge our own paths though the jungle that is life? Are we a product of our own choices and experiences? Or are we simply following the path laid for us?

Thoughts and Discussion.

[teengeekgrrl]

I'll jump in.

You all probably know that I'm a Christian... so yes, I believe in God. And Jesus, and Jesus's birth, resurrection, et cetera.

God does not control my life. He does not make any big or small decisions for me. He doesn't choose who I will marry at some point (or if I will). I do. He does not choose what classes I want to take. I do. He does not choose wheher I want pizza for lunch or the hot lunch they are serving. I do. God did not tell me to wear cargo pants and a Superman tee shirt today. I did.

God gives people abilities, decision-making skills, and the opportunities to learn to utilize those to the fullest. He does not predetermine our day-to-day decisions or our big ones. God lets us do that ourselves.

I do believe in some kind of destiny though. God can guide us in the direction that would provide us with a better life or situation than another choice in a paricular matter, but we can still choose to follow those signs or not. God can show me any sign in the book that I really should or should not ask a particular person to the dance, but Whether I do or not is still my own choice. If I do something right that has a result of my life being improved tenfold, it was destiny that the happiness lay at the end of that pth, not destiny that I followed it. Does that make any sense? I hope it does.

This is only my opinion. Anyone else is free to disagree.

[Omega_Shadow]

Opinions are always free TGG. I meant this to be an open discussion with all different points of view in which everyone is invited no mater what they believe

[Shamou]

I do believe in free will... ...and I also believe that the best way to achieve what we want is through communication via the Universal Intelligence. In my view, the Universal Intelligence is a two way communication system. We can receive information through it just as we can communicate with it. And, in teleology we learn that what we emit will come back to us. In simpler terms... if we see ourselves as lucky, successful and happy... that is what we will attract to us... alas... the opposite is also true.

...some people could call it, influencing our karma. Those who dwell in the positive... will be rewarded as such... and those who are immersed in negativity will be awarded the fruits of it.

...IMO... people who believe in a pre-ordained view of life are people who see themselves as victims... which relieves them of all responsibility for their lives but will find themselves unable to alter or influence their situation.

[katonca]

Originally Posted by teengeekgrrl

I'll jump in.

You all probably know that I'm a Christian... so yes, I believe in God. And Jesus, and Jesus's birth, resurrection, et cetera.

God does not control my life. He does not make any big or small decisions for me. He doesn't choose who I will marry at some point (or if I will). I do. He does not choose what classes I want to take. I do. He does not choose wheher I want pizza for lunch or the hot lunch they are serving. I do. God did not tell me to wear cargo pants and a Superman tee shirt today. I did.

God gives people abilities, decision-making skills, and the opportunities to learn to utilize those to the fullest. He does not predetermine our day-to-day decisions or our big ones. God lets us do that ourselves.

I do believe in some kind of destiny though. God can guide us in the direction that would provide us with a better life or situation than another choice in a paricular matter, but we can still choose to follow those signs or not. God can show me any sign in the book that I really should or should not ask a particular person to the dance, but Whether I do or not is still my own choice. If I do something right that has a result of my life being improved tenfold, it was destiny that the happiness lay at the end of that pth, not destiny that I followed it. Does that make any sense? I hope it does.

This is only my opinion. Anyone else is free to disagree.

One of the best thought out, heart felt post I have read. Good for you

[teengeekgrrl]

Originally Posted by katonca

One of the best thought out, heart felt post I have read. Good for you

Thanks... that's so nice to see you say that.

[teengeekgrrl]

Originally Posted by Shamou

I do believe in free will... ...and I also believe that the best way to achieve what we want is through communication via the Universal Intelligence. In my view, the Universal Intelligence is a two way communication system. We can receive information through it just as we can communicate with it. And, in teleology we learn that what we emit will come back to us. In simpler terms... if we see ourselves as lucky, successful and happy... that is what we will attract to us... alas... the opposite is also true.

[b]...some people could call it, influencing our karma. Those who dwell in the positive... will be rewarded as such... and those who are immersed in negativity will be awarded the fruits of it.[b]

...IMO... people who believe in a pre-ordained view of life are people who see themselves as victims... which relieves them of all responsibility for their lives but will find themselves unable to alter or influence their situation.

Very interesting, Shamou, and I really liked the part I bolded. I agree with that... I know so many people who wallow in self-pity that could be a whole lot better off if they stopped dwelling on past misery and thus creating more.

[JEBWrench]

In my personal paradigm, destiny and free will are one and the same. Our decisions and actions are caused by our experiences and desires, yet those desires and experiences prepare us for what is to come whether we know it or not. The systematic nature of life, community, and everything around us is too streamlined to be just a matter of chance. We have our purposes in the system that we are in, and while we can steer towards them, we are also most adept at some things over others.

Some people will never be good mechanics. Some people can diagnose an electrical problem by looking.

We can choose our own path broadly, but it's sometimes hard to put a square peg in a round hole. There has to be a reason for that.

[katonca]

Originally Posted by teengeekgrrl

Thanks... that's so nice to see you say that.

You're welcome

[wacor]

This is I think going to be an intersting thread. I am not in a real deep discussion kind of mood but at least I can follow this now by jumping in.

Karma, destiny, mother nature are just a couple things that i tend to think occur.

we can determine a lot of our future but sometimes things happen that we have no control over.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by JEBWrench

In my personal paradigm, destiny and free will are one and the same. Our decisions and actions are caused by our experiences and desires, yet those desires and experiences prepare us for what is to come whether we know it or not. The systematic nature of life, community, and everything around us is too streamlined to be just a matter of chance. We have our purposes in the system that we are in, and while we can steer towards them, we are also most adept at some things over others.

Some people will never be good mechanics. Some people can diagnose an electrical problem by looking.

We can choose our own path broadly, but it's sometimes hard to put a square peg in a round hole. There has to be a reason for that.

In my personal paradigm, destiny and free will are one and the same.

This would require additional information as it seem to be an oxymoron.

Our decisions and actions are caused by our experiences and desires,

Are you saying that our desires are guided by the evaluation and conclusion of past experiences…??? If so, I would tend to agree.

The systematic nature of life, community, and everything around us is too streamlined to be just a matter of chance.

IMO… what happens in our community and around us has little or no influence on whether we will be happy, lucky or successful in our own life. We should be the captain of our soul and the master of our fate… regardless as to what the sea around us is like.

We have our purposes in the system that we are in, and while we can steer towards them, we are also most adept at some things over others.

Some people will never be good mechanics. Some people can diagnose an electrical problem by looking.

We can choose our own path broadly, but it's sometimes hard to put a square peg in a round hole. There has to be a reason for that.

For me, this seems to pertain more to our choice of profession or line of endeavor then to the quality of our life… and I do believe that destiny has a lot more to do with the quality of life then with the tool we choose to achieve it.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by JEBWrench

We can choose our own path broadly, but it's sometimes hard to put a square peg in a round hole. There has to be a reason for that.

The reason is pure dumb luck.

There have been people who have died as a result of stuff falling from the sky - reason - they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. People who were present in Tunguska on June 30, 1908 were simply unlucky.

Same with people's comparitive strengths and weaknesses.

Originally Posted by Omega_shadow

Are our actions controlled by some outside force,

Our own actions are controlled by no one other than us. People can put a gun to your head, but guess what - it is still your own choice as to whether you will do what they want you to do or not.

Control is ours and ours alone, influence comes from many sources.

Originally Posted by OS

script or transcendent beings that plan out our lives in some grand screenplay? Or do we forge our own paths though the jungle that is life? Are we a product of our own choices and experiences?

This is where it gets interesting. People have been asking if we are more a product of nature or nurture for a long time.

I posted on this in another thread a while back - too lazy to look it up now, or, for that matter, to even google what I'm about to post for accuracy.

There are a couple of takes on this:

Determinism says that all actions are determined by causes. If you can find what those causes were, then you can determine what made the event occur. So, if you can find enough causal-type events, you may be able to predict the future. But there's one wrinkle in that "may" - it doesn't account for free will.

Fatalism says that all events are predetermined and a person has no influence whatsoever on their destiny - an example is that if it is your destiny to die in a plane crash, and you are somehow made aware of this, then , even though you may choose to stay away from airplanes your entire life, and never use one for travel, one will fall from the sky and kill you. Your destiny will be fullfilled.

Determinism and Fatalism are at odds with eachother. Determinism would suggest that if you told the person who was destined to die in a plane crash exactly what series of events led to his death in the plane crash, he could then avoid those events and therefore avoid that death.

Like I said, I'm too lazy to google for more info. Fun stuff though.

Originally Posted by OS

Or are we simply following the path laid for us?

Thoughts and Discussion.

Thoughts - one analogy for how(and , most importantly, why) you decide to see the world is Pascal's wager.

(too lazy to give a link to that one too)

Pascal's wager basically said that one good reason for choosing religion was "just in case". If all those religious nuts were right, and you did not believe them, you go to hell. But if you decide to believe "just in case", then you have a lot to win.

In short, you have a lot to win and not a lot to lose by believing in a certain way.

I'd say that the same could be said in this case, although it isn't a very convincing argument - if you believe in fatalism, then no matter what you do, you will not change your destiny, so why bother trying?

If you believe in determinism, then your future is determined at least partly by the choices you make - so you will be wise to take some responsibility for your choices, since making better choices will improve the probablility of you having a good future.

A fatalist is less likely to have a good future than a determinist. In that respect, it would behoove you to bet on determinism. But, like Pascal's wager, the weakness of making a choice depending on how it will affect your future is that it doesn't answer the original question - it is too pragmatic an approach for a philosopher because it doesn't tell him the true and correct answer.

Somehow, I think that's a whole lot more thoughts and discussion than you wanted.

[Omega_Shadow]

Good discussion already.

Personally I do not believe in destiny. Destiny is for those that want to say that events are out of their control, to blame destiny for their lot in life. A COMP OUT.

Everyone has free will, and those that chose to use it meld the world around them to their own image and design. Look at me for a gloat-- I mean example ( ) Here I am, a young man that had one hell of a childhood with a psychotic mother, teachers who flat out did not care, told that my mind was "damaged" and that I would need therapy all my life, barely got my diploma, dropped out of my first year of collage, had a long string of dead end jobs and money problems and have been plagued with bad health. Oh, don't forget the suicide attempts and that my mother burned down our home after she removed all her belongings. And the family that refused to help me out when I was in the most need.

And look at me now. I am in a very good job in my field of computers and networking with an even brighter future when I decide to go for it and open my own shop. I don't see a shrink or pop pills and I am perfectly stable and in no way depressed. My mind is fine as you all can tell. My <CWLMST> of a mother is the furthest thing from my thoughts (except for the happy thought of knowing the police are a step behind her with a charge of arson), I pride myself of being able to find a solution to just about any situation, got wonderful friends and my health, though not good, is slowly starting to improve.

Is this Fate that made me turn out this way? Is it Destiny that allowed me to become who I am?

Or did I make a conscious decision not to be a floor mat for the world and bent it to my own will? I say the later. I made those choices, good and bad. After I stopped feeling sorry for myself and accepted that there was nothing I could do about my past I changed my future with action and knowledge that I learned from my mistakes in childhood. And that is not the definition of destiny, that is an example of Will.

[Omega_Shadow]

Posted before I read your post bandit. Good stuff Going to take some time to read though it all

[JEBWrench]

Let's take this from the top.

Originally Posted by Shamou

This would require additional information as it seem to be an oxymoron.

What I mean, is when we take a decision, there is only one possible decision we could have made. The act of "making" a decision is only a culmination of a path, and according to experiences, desires, genetics, and outside factors, there is only one possibility. Thus, no real free will, even in our decisions. Ergo, our will is desined to us.

By the same token, destiny itself is dictated by those desires, experiences and genetics, so, in a sense. Does that mean we don't get to influence them? Not the genetics and experiences, but the desires. We can always "decide" to drop something. (Of course, even in giving up, it could be argued we had no will. But I'm not going that deep into philosophy. )

So, in essence, it's a little of column A, a little of column B, which makes up what I believe. While A is not equal to B, A+B can still be equal to C.

Are you saying that our desires are guided by the evaluation and conclusion of past experiences…??? If so, I would tend to agree.

To an extent.

IMO… what happens in our community and around us has little or no influence on whether we will be happy, lucky or successful in our own life. We should be the captain of our soul and the master of our fate… regardless as to what the sea around us is like.

I wasn't speaking of happiness or luck. I was simply referring to us having a purpose in the continuing success of the community around us. Even the atmosphere of an area can be influenced by the people therein - if everyone is reclusive, morose, withdrawn, the AREA feels as such. If a place is friendly, ougtoing, accessible, it feels as such. That's because of people and their influences on the system. But the system dictates what the units therein need be.

For me, this seems to pertain more to our choice of profession or line of endeavor then to the quality of our life… and I do believe that destiny has a lot more to do with the quality of life then with the tool we choose to achieve it.

We have the cards we are dealt; the best anyone can do is thrive as best they can with their given hand. If you have inherently poor personal skills, you would not be wise to seek a career path with a breadth of personal encounters and socialization. But you can still be successful in something else.

The "Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" "Well, don't do that." theory of life.

Now, page two.

The reason is pure dumb luck.

Assuming there is such a thing as luck.

There have been people who have died as a result of stuff falling from the sky - reason - they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. People who were present in Tunguska on June 30, 1908 were simply unlucky.

They were in the place they should been at the time they were should have been - through their genetic makeup, and all the seemingly unrelated sets of circumstances that occured forced them. (Yes, forced. Without duress.)

"For want of a nail, the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost,
For want of a horse, the rider was lost,
For want of a rider, the army was lost,
For want of an army, the kingdom was lost."

Fractals and chaos at their best - outcomes are specifically dependent on their initial conditions. And everything can be predicted when enough conditions are factored in.

Same with people's comparitive strengths and weaknesses.

See above - bad at math? Don't take accounting. Why are you bad at math? Your brain doesn't handle numbers well. That's how you were meant to be.

Our own actions are controlled by no one other than us. People can put a gun to your head, but guess what - it is still your own choice as to whether you will do what they want you to do or not.

Control is ours and ours alone, influence comes from many sources.

Actions, yes, but reactions are instinctive and not directly under our control for the most part.


As for fatalism vs. determinism, I'm afraid the concepts of both are far too simplified for my paradigm. As being fatalistic inherently results in a chemical imbalance which influences your path - but not under your control.