[Reuel Miller]

Greetings

I started watching NFL about 10-15 years ago. Unfortunately, here in South Africa, we only got an hour long highlight package each week, and the Superbowl. In my time, I have supported the 49ers (NINERS!!!!!! Professor Von Tibble? Vell, I like ze team, NINERS!!!), the Redskins and ever since the magic Lateral pass in the play-off game last year, the Titans. This year, the Ravens beat my Titans, so I am, by default a Giants fan for the Superbowl.

Personally, I believe that the Superbowl should be won by the team with a great defense, but the best offense. Turnover touch downs are fun to watch, but true skill is watching a perfectly crafted drive go down field from the 20 into the endzone, using the clock to perfection. That is the skill in football... using good strategies, and out-thinking your opponent.

Just pushing him over and returning the fumbled ball for a touchdown is the brute-force in the game.

Personally, I miss the days of the Uber-Quaterbacks... the days of Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Boomer Esiason and Jim McMahon. Today's QBs just dont seem to be cut from the same cloth. I like the toughness and speed of the likes of Steve McNair and Donovan McNabb, who, once they have been popped out of the pocket can be very dangerous in their own right. But some of the other Quaterbacks I have watched in the post season have been really awful. Jay Fiedler looked completely out of his depth, Kurt Warner (post-concusion) was not the Quaterback he was last year and Trent Dilfer looks like he is just wasting time until he can get his defense back onto the field.

Now, I have not seen Kerry Collins play (ESPN international never showed one of the Giants games) but while he has almost the same record as Dilfer does Rushing he has almost double the Passing yards... and 10 more TD passes. I really hope he can get the ball in the air and crush the Ravens' secondary defense. I'd love to see them eat a little crow

Now... how many of you know how cricket is played??

Cheers



------------------
Reuel Miller
Windows NT Moderator (yes, that does make me biased )

rmiller@xperts.co.za

Website: www.xperts.co.za/multiboot

Every morning is the dawn of a new error...

[Bryan]

Yea but do you really think any of those guys you mentioned would have had such great drives down the field against the Bears(Monsters of the Midway) or the Pittsburghs(Steel Curtain) defenses. History shows they didn't. That's what makes a great defense so special to watch. Good offenses are a dime a dozen in the NFLs past. Great defense only come around once a decade. You'll get to see the best play in about a week and a half. Then lets see how Terry Collins does against a defense that's allowed the least amount of points this season in the history of the NFL.

As far as a crushing the Ravens defense, no one has been able to accomplish that and I really doubt the SuperBowl will be any different. You'll see for yourself and walk away shaking your head in amazement or do like most do and just chalk it up to a bad offensive day by the opposition.

BTW, the opposition has had 28 of those bad Sundays for the last year and a half. The Ravens defense is simply the best to have ever played the game and what should scare everyone is their average age is just 25 years old. So there's a few more years left of total and absolute domination of any offense that goes up against them.



[This message has been edited by bhesson (edited 01-18-2001).]

[Anne Troy]

Yeah! What he said!!

[Reuel Miller]

Greetings

Ok... so what do we have riding on the outcome?

Giants fans:
-------------
Reuel Miller
Mulder
Larrycore

Ravens fans:
-------------
bhesson
Dreamboat


Don't ask me for money, I don't have any (and at R7 to $1, I sure ain't paying 7 times more then the next guy), but there must be something else we can bet with....

Just to make it interesting...

Cheers



------------------
Reuel Miller
Windows NT Moderator (yes, that does make me biased )

rmiller@xperts.co.za

Website: www.xperts.co.za/multiboot

Every morning is the dawn of a new error...

[Bryan]

All that's riding on this is the little shread of dignity Mulder has left after his humiliating prediction of a crushing Raiders victory. Ahaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh

[Mulderator]

Reuel--that's amazing. I was just thinking you probably had absolutely no interest in this post because as a South African chap (notice the use of South African lingo there!!!), you wouldn't know jack about football and as it turns out, you know far more than bhesson, which is not much of a compliment, I know!!!

Actually, I'm with you--while I also am a big fan of great defenses, I believe a true Superbowl team has either a great defense and good offense, or a great offense and a good defense, or of course, both are great--which is rare. I do agree with bhesson in that that Ravens defense, at least for the past 3 or 4 weeks, is one of the greatest I've seen--the 85-86 Giants team that won the Superbowl and the Bear team from the year before were much the same--absolutely stifling defenses, but both those teams also had very good offenses, although not great ones like the NINERS and the RAMS.

The Giants have a very good defense although not quite as good as the Ravens, but the offense of the Giants is clearly better, but frankly not good enough to move the ball on that Ravens defense (although, if there is a weakness in the Ravens, its the corners, so if Collins has a great game like he did against the Vikings, the Ravens are in trouble). And the Ravens offense is absolutely horrible (that's why you see those freak long plays like they had against the Raiders--teams have such little respect for the offense, they take big gambles). The crows will not move the ball on the Giants defense.

The key to this game is going to be turnovers. The team that loses that battle will lose the game. And I think there is an intangible here--the fact that the Ravens are favored for the first time--they have not been in that position before. That will put pressure on them and fire up the Giants, which I think will be the difference in the game.

While I would love to see a very close game won by the Giants in the final minutes, the fact is Superbowls, with the exception of a few, are very one-sided games and I think if one team scores a few times quickly on special teams or turnovers, the game is history!!!

I agree that we should come up with a bet that does not involve money. I know one for sure for bhesson--if the Ravens lose, bhesson HAS TO ACCEPT THE MODERATOR POSITION!!!



[This message has been edited by Mulder (edited 01-18-2001).]

[Mulderator]

BTW, Dreamboat sent me the following e-mail about her analysis of the big game. I quess she was afraid to post it here, but it's quite inciteful, actually.

Dreamy one said:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
When you have a game with two great defenses as this year, there won't be much excitement. In those situations, I have more freedom to serve up snacks and appetizers that "go right through ya", like a good Mexican Bean Dip or some spicy salsa. Now, with a game where you expect more scoring and excitement, then whoooaaaaa, YOU WANT TO BE MORE CAUTIOUS ABOUT YOUR HOR'DEOUVRES. You don't want to be serving grown men who will be jumping up and down with excitement any type of food that "'ll go right through 'em". In those situations, I prefer vegetables with a nice cool ranch dip, or maybe some chips and pretzels--but absolutely NO MEXICAN FOOD!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Mulderator]

Hey bhesson, remember this quote from my other post about Siragusa flopping on Gannon?:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Frankly, I think Siragusa should be fined heavily by the NFL for what he did--that slob. I don't know how you can call yourself an athlete with a body like that!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your response:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
As far as Siragusa, they play football not patty cakes. And since your going to stop watching football in two weeks after the Ravens shutout the Giants, you may want to take in a patty cake game at your nearest kindegarden. They play nice there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is a quote from ESPN's web site:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
The 340-pound Siragusa was fined $10,000 on Thursday for slamming Oakland's Rich Gannon to the ground in the first half of last week's AFC championship game, won 16-3 by Baltimore. Gannon bruised his collarbone and left the game, returned in the third quarter but was ineffective.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is the article:

Ravens' Siragusa, Lewis fined for QB-hurting hits

Attempting to knock the opposing team's quarterback out of the game is a tactic of which the Ravens seem very fond. Not surprisingly, it was Tony "The Slob" Siragusa and his hood friend, Ray "the stabber" Lewis that were fined. Is that what you call "tough defense"? The league is better off without those kinds of players no matter how good their play!!!



[This message has been edited by Mulder (edited 01-19-2001).]

[Reuel Miller]

Greetings

Now, while there is no love lost between myself and Siragusa, I must admit that the is an effective piece of lard. If you sissies are going to wear the padding, expect to get hit, and hit hard. In a war, you don't get told by your generals to "win the war, but don't torture the prisoner's for information".

Football is a tough game, played by the toughest competitors, and in the play-offs, you can double that. No quarter is asked for, and none is given. It's no use 'crying to mommy' after the game has been won or lost.

If you want my opinion, the minute they put on the pads, all bets were off.

Now, take rugby as an example... you get the same kind of crunching tackles, only normally one of the tacklers is going at some pace, and there are no pads being worn. Now there is a tough sport. If you can see a few games, try look for games played in the "Super 12" or the "Tri-Nations" competitions (the "Super 12" is a competition pitting the best 4 provincial sides in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand against each other, and the Tr-Nations is when the three National sides compete) if you are looking for an example of how real men play a contact sport.

Anyway...

Cheers



------------------
Reuel Miller
Windows NT Moderator (yes, that does make me biased )

rmiller@xperts.co.za

Website: www.xperts.co.za/multiboot

Every morning is the dawn of a new error...

[Mulderator]

Reuel, Reuel, Reuel--one post you display sheer genius, and the next you, succumb to utter mediocrity. Your opinions are quite correct with regard to 21 out of 22 of the players on the field, but you err with regard to the most important man on the field--the quarterback. Did you read the title of that article above: "Ravens' Siragusa, Lewis fined for QB-hurting hits.

While it easy to jump on the band wagon with bhesson and others who harken back to the days when there were no rules to protect the quarterback (all this bravado about the game is not one for pansies and sissies), you fail to realize that in the past 20 years, players have developed to the point where 275-pound linebackers that run the 40 in 4.4 and bench press 500 pounds are now commonplace.

Remember that a quarterback must, by the necessity of his position, leave himself completely vulnerable to an onslaught of blitzing safeties and linebackers on virtually every pass play such that he is unable to protect himself. While I don't disagree that the other 21 players should expect "all bets to be off" when they put on the pads, do you really believe it fair to leave one man completely defenseless against an army of goons? If there is to be a fight, shouldn't the fight be fair?

And I don't think you can realistically compare what is at stake with a bunch of chaps being paid, maybe $100 a game at most, to plod up and down a rugby field to what is at stake when an NFL quarterback is lost for the season, can you? Troy Aikman and Steve Young were two very tough players, but Young was driven from the game (as Aikman will be) from a rash of concussions suffered when thugs like Siragusa and Lewis took the opportunity to inflict what can only be deemed "cowardly cheap shots" when these intelligent warriors were at there most vulnerable points.

Don't tell me you really believe that a quaterback should consider it fair that while he is in the act of finishing throwing a pass, that a 350 pound goon should be permitted to drive himself into the quarterback and then deliberately "flop" his 350 pounds on top of him while the man has no way to defend himself, do you? And similarly, do you really think if fair Ray Lewis should be permitted to "spear" a man in his chest with his helmet, again while that man has no reasonable chance to defend himself?

Thankfully, NFL officials have a different sense of fairness than you and bhesson do. If not for these rules protecting quarterback, we would not have the joy of watching in awe as Dan Marino, or Joe Montana, or John Elway, or Brett Favre engineer another last minute comeback--or at least we would be able to watch them do it for 12 or 15 years!!!

Like I said before when arguing this point with bhesson--I love watching a well-timed, vicious head jarring hit delivered by the likes of Ronnie Lott of the Niners or John Lynch of the Buccanneers as much as you guys do, but I don't enjoy seeing Steve Young laying unconscious on the field. If you guys do, then you have a different idea of "sport" than I do!!!

[Bryan]

I'll say it again and see if it sinks in this time. It's football. Football players have been falling on other football players since the beginning of the sport. That's what happens in football. It's not til the recent era of political correctness that footballs management has started to be the mommy of the players. And it's only a reaction taken because of sissy fans whining and crying for more offense and less football the way it's always been played. The player and coaches will all tell you the management of the NFL goes way beyond any reasonable measures in most cases when they fine a player. If it's not a blantant heads down and straight into another players head hit then there should not be a fine levied. Neither of those hits fell under that catagory. I'll just let the words of Gannon and McNair stand for themselves. Neither thought those hits were anything other than football being played the way it's always been played and both said so after the games. Mulder's just sore because it wasn't a Titan or Raider falling on Dilfer. And one other thing, the Raiders had been crowing before the game that they had knocked out the quarterbacks from their previous seven games. Looks like the table was turned on them.

BTW, Mulder, if you know any football players who want to play a sport where you have a 100 percent probability of not being fallen on, then I suggest they take up synchronized swimming. Ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaa



[This message has been edited by bhesson (edited 01-19-2001).]

[Mulderator]

Well--all I know is that at least some of the guys that made the decisions to fine the Slob and the Stabber are former players!!! And you're logic, as usual, makes no sense. The truly great players have always done it within the "rules" of the game while the hoods try and play by their own rules. Like I said and I'll say it again, there is nothing wrong with good solid fundamental football.

The way you talk, I don't think you actually saw that play. Football is blocking and tackling, not belly flopping--you won't see any coaches teaching that technique at any level. I assume you also disagree with the rule that prevents players from "piling on" (which is what Siragusa did) or "leading with the helmet to the other players helmer" (which is what Lewis did). The reason those rules are there is to prevent unnecessary injury while still maintaining the integrity of the game.

As far as I am concerned, Siragusa and Lewis have no class and will never have the respect that other great NFL players have had because they have a "win at any cost, even if its dirty" mentality. That may be your idea of football, but as a former player and a life time man, it certainly isn't my idea of how the game should be played!!!

[Mulderator]

bhesson--here's what you hero Siragusa had to say about what he did:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Siragusa decried the fine, but he believes he got his money's worth.

"If it's going to cost me 20 grand and I'm in the Super Bowl, that's fine. I'll pay it," Siragusa said. "I'll pay twice that. I won't tell them that, though."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a piece of crap that guy is!

I'll take Tiki Barber and Jason Sehorn anyday!!!


[This message has been edited by Mulder (edited 01-19-2001).]

[Anne Troy]

Ah, come on, mulder! Siragusa was just being pompous, arrogant, egotistical, and mouthy. You should understand all about that! You poopie pants.

(Go ahead, bryan. Put "Yeah! What she said!")

[This message has been edited by Dreamboat (edited 01-19-2001).]

[Bryan]

Yea, what she said.

While I'll agree I wish he would not say those things, I'm not surprised to hear him say them since he's a product of the rough streets of Jersey. He's a real character and I really don't think he would intentional hurt someone. On the other hand he goes into each game approaching it as if they are gladiators doing battle. Pretty much all is fair in love and war attitude. On the other hand if someone jumped ten feet in the air and landed on him on purpose, his reaction would be, "damn that hurt" and he would say it with a smile. He would not think there was anything wrong with it even if it was done to him. That's just the way he is. He a throw back to the way they played ball in the 50's and 60's. He reminds me alot of Artie Donovan, an old Baltimore Colt player.

Hey, Mulder, see these guys. They're going to eat the Giants offense for dinner. And they're just the starting eleven. Each one has a backup that's good enough to start on almost any NFL team in the league.

<img src=http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20010118/capt.super_bowl_ravens_0dm.jpg>



[This message has been edited by bhesson (edited 01-19-2001).]