[tomdkat]

Great analogy, new tech guy.

Peace...

[new tech guy]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Great analogy, new tech guy.

Peace...

Thanks I try somtimes . By the way, this thread should be moved to the civilized debate forum .

[win2kpro]

new tech guy I have no idea why you would think that this discussion should be moved to the civilized debate forum. If you spend a little time in that forum, you will discover that the majority of peoples technical knowledge who participate in that forum is pretty much limited to knowing how to turn a machine on and off, insert emoticons in a post, and insert a picture they have uploaded to Photobucket.

[new tech guy]

Originally Posted by win2kpro

new tech guy I have no idea why you would think that this discussion should be moved to the civilized debate forum. If you spend a little time in that forum, you will discover that the majority of peoples technical knowledge who participate in that forum is pretty much limited to knowing how to turn a machine on and off, insert emoticons in a post, and insert a picture they have uploaded to Photobucket.

What does that have to do with anything , heck, i've brought this up to a non technical friend and got an opinion out of them as well. Its not like were talking about the code, were talking about whether its a good idea or not for it to be brought up in the classroom.

[JohnWill]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Great analogy, new tech guy.

Peace...

Actually, IMO, it's not all that good an analogy. If you go that route, you can pretty much dream up almost any activity should be restricted. Driving a car, you could be a hit-n-run driver, or perhaps just a drunk driver. Flying a plane, you could be a terrorist. And so on, you get the picture...

[new tech guy]

That is what you seem to be implying John. And your never going to elimate the bad person, because there is always someone else who is more than willing to teach the trait. And i see this as a good thing. Sure there are plenty of people who use the knowledge malicously and we cannot predict what these people will do with the knowledge. Heck even people who know it and teach it at the security developer's lab could use it malicously. And that is my point in my prior post that everything can be used maliciously. It is up to that person what to do with knowledge. And what you seem to imply is that all of these things which can be malicous should be abolished. So now you see how that includes pretty much everything.

[JohnWill]

There are some things that have very few good uses, this happens to be one of them.

[new tech guy]

But our point is that it becomes a good thing when it lets Symantec, Grisoft, Lavasoft,Mcafee, etc release that new update .

[valis]

Originally Posted by win2kpro

new tech guy I have no idea why you would think that this discussion should be moved to the civilized debate forum. If you spend a little time in that forum, you will discover that the majority of peoples technical knowledge who participate in that forum is pretty much limited to knowing how to turn a machine on and off, insert emoticons in a post, and insert a picture they have uploaded to Photobucket.

I would tend to take offense at that statement. A debate is a well-structured argument defending your stance on a particular statement. If your intellect is best suited to handling machinery, so be it. I, myself, not only manage a global network for a billion dollar company (and yes, I do know where the on switch is, thank you very much) but I also find the logical aspect of any good debate an excellent way of exercising your mind and developing better communication skills; after all, by being limited to this medium, we are using about 20% of our communication abilities; the rest are non-verbal.

Try it sometime. IMO, you are a bit too easily offended for it, and I mean that not as an insult, but as an observation. It does take thick skin to wander in there, but once you grow that hide, it's a wonderful experience in logical and critical thinking.

thanks,

v

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by JohnWill

Actually, IMO, it's not all that good an analogy. If you go that route, you can pretty much dream up almost any activity should be restricted. Driving a car, you could be a hit-n-run driver, or perhaps just a drunk driver. Flying a plane, you could be a terrorist. And so on, you get the picture...

Actually, it IS a great analogy and the examples you cite also apply even though driving a car wouldn't necessarily be considered the same thing as firing a gun at someone or spreading malware.

Originally Posted by new tech guy

That is what you seem to be implying John. And your never going to elimate the bad person, because there is always someone else who is more than willing to teach the trait. And i see this as a good thing. Sure there are plenty of people who use the knowledge malicously and we cannot predict what these people will do with the knowledge. Heck even people who know it and teach it at the security developer's lab could use it malicously. And that is my point in my prior post that everything can be used maliciously. It is up to that person what to do with knowledge. And what you seem to imply is that all of these things which can be malicous should be abolished. So now you see how that includes pretty much everything.

Very well stated!

It comes down to personal responsibility, in the end.

Peace...

[win2kpro]

Originally Posted by valis

I would tend to take offense at that statement. A debate is a well-structured argument defending your stance on a particular statement. If your intellect is best suited to handling machinery, so be it. I, myself, not only manage a global network for a billion dollar company (and yes, I do know where the on switch is, thank you very much) but I also find the logical aspect of any good debate an excellent way of exercising your mind and developing better communication skills; after all, by being limited to this medium, we are using about 20% of our communication abilities; the rest are non-verbal.

Try it sometime. IMO, you are a bit too easily offended for it, and I mean that not as an insult, but as an observation. It does take thick skin to wander in there, but once you grow that hide, it's a wonderful experience in logical and critical thinking.

thanks,

v

valis, if my statement offended you, so be it. I said the MAJORITY, not all.

My statement was intended to be that the discussion of malicious code writing, and the end ramifications thereof, was not a subject that I thought could best be discussed by the group that habitually visit CD. I thought it was no more appropriate to be discussed in CD than if I made a post in CD discussing why certain power supplys rated at 650 watts may be suitable for a new machine build, and other rated at 650 watts may not be suitable.

Frankly, I don't spend a great deal of time in CD because arguing (debating) pro or con on subjects such as; "America has become a police state", "Save the polar bear, stop flying", "The Gallup Poll", etc. is not my forte. I had much rather be in the hardware forum trying to solve a hardware related problem.

Maybe my skin is too thin for CD, but I really don't think so. I spend little time in that particular forum because quite honestly, I find many of the threads, and many of the participants who "hang out" in that particular forum to be extremely BORING.

[MikeSwim07]

Wow...You have no empathy...

[valis]

Originally Posted by win2kpro

Maybe my skin is too thin for CD, but I really don't think so. I spend little time in that particular forum because quite honestly, I find many of the threads, and many of the participants who "hang out" in that particular forum to be extremely BORING.

dude, look at your sig line.....it's about power supplies. Not exactly a conversation starter, but I'll grant you it's a valid point. I've done my share of wondering why I find hexagonal blades in a glorified email machine for Aunt Irma, but that's neither here nor there. It just simply is. Look at my sig line; another real barn burner of a conversation starter. Most people have never even heard of CP/M, much less Kildall, and I'm pretty certain I have those floppies laying around somewhere.

If you want to call them boring, may I suggest you don't swing over to the dark side? If you don't like the channel, change it.

Better yet, join in the debate; you are obviously an intelligent person, and if you chose to, you could add something to the debate arena.

But it does take finesse and thick skin.

be safe, man. Talk at you soon.

v

[win2kpro]

I believe that everyone interested in this thread has had adequate time to post their opinions, either pro or con, so I will mark it solved. Of course if anyone wants to add
additional comments, they are free to do so.

I will add one thing as a final thought that is strictly my opinion. In the article Professor Ledin is credited with making this statement. "If college students can beat these antivirus programs, he argues, what good are they for the people and businesses spending nearly $5 billion a year on them?"

I would like to ask Professor Ledin this question. If you are so smart, and good at teaching your students how to beat these antivirus programs, why don't you start your own antivirus company?

Kaspersky was founded by a husband and wife team in 1997, and today is one of the leaders in antivirus software. Although Wikipedia is not one of the best sources to use for financial information they indicate that Kaspersky's revenue for 2007 was US $85.3 million in 2007 up 76% from 2006, and their net revenue for 2007 was US $67.3 million up 69% from 2006. If these reported figures are anywhere close to being correct I would wager heavily that Natalia and Eugene Kaspersky are making one hell of a lot more money that Professor Ledin.

All I have to say to Professor Ledin is remember the old saying from Ralph Waldo Emerson; "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door". Professor Ledin if you are so talented, build that better mousetrap, and I'll bet you will make a hell of a lot more money than being stuck as a professor at Sonoma State University.

I'll be anxiously awaiting for the Ledin antivirus program to come to market.

[valis]

one thing i've found in my fight against malware, is that the easiest way to understand how a virus works, is to reverse engineer it, and get down to what makes it tick. I've found this to be pretty much the essence of anything I want to build, be it from an alarm clock to a vacuum cleaner to a pc; take it apart, figure it out, put it back together.

Along the way, you are sure to see areas where you think you can improve on it; but the bottom line, by knowing how it works, you are better equipped in knowing how to fix it.