[Compiler]

Originally Posted by steveie85

Vista ran just fine on my Dell Inspiron 1501. I am running a AMD Turion 64 @ 2.0Ghz with 1GB when I got it~
Btw Dell dose still sell XP but dose recomend Vista. They are probably only still offering it because they have a stock pile of it!!

It would run even faster with XP, but good for you! (I do mean that).

Er... no... Dell is selling XP because there was demand for it. For the first 1-3 months when Vista first came out, Dell did not OFFER XP as an option. But with problems, complaints and user demand, they brought back XP as a choice.

M$ was supposed to stop making XP in JAN 08... but have extended into summer instead. hmmm.

[Bob1940]

Hi Compiler

Gran still doing alright.

Could'nt resist coming back to see how this lots going.

75 odd post and still revved up.

Not bad mate.

regards from down under

[steveie85]

Actually compiler, Dell has never stoped offering it. If you went on there site and chose to compare systems you could choose to customize with Vista or XP. Also you could call and talk to an awsome customer service rep. and customize a system. Check your facts first!!

[RobLinux]

Dell sell's XP because they want to sell to business (and home enthusiasts) they will sell XP so long as they can, and introducing M$ Upgrades is always expensive and a project, due to their poor record on interoperability and following standards (even their own like SMB networking).

Now M$'s attitude to change is shown by this (relating to Document Formats in this case) http://blogs.msdn.com/jasonmatusow/a...-and-sigh.aspx

"There are many document formats out there. Innovation will continue to push technology forward (especially in the applications) and thus the need for evolution and flexibility with document formats will continue to move forward at a rapid pace as well. Now, with the push towards standardization of these formats the argument is one of consolidation. Yet this does not jive with the actual situation in the marketplace."

Vista is Innovation and M$ are going to push it!

If you stand in their way they will just roll over you, so it's pointless using M$ OS like XP and moaning about Vista. They don't have to care, they're M$ and they think they have you locked in to their products (and if you rebel like Ernie Ball company did they will simply find another sucker).

Originally Posted by Bob1940

75 odd post and still revved up.

Not bad mate.

Right on!

[steveie85]

Vista is new. Only been out a little while. Of course there is going to be issues. Microsoft is working on it. It takes some time to fix every little thing, but they are working on it.

[RobLinux]

Not when it's "Innovation". A lot of what ppl have complained about in this thread (and elsewhere) is actually, stuff that's done to drive hardware and software upgrades ie. extract money from consumers. These are not always "fixes" but actual design decisions and policy.

If you object to treatment as a cash cow, then the logical solution is to investigate the alternatives, not rely on old version of OS. I've found the gOS development kit (minus DDR2 RAM) on sale for $60, CPU Via C7 + ATX board; which is what one "Gran" was reported to be very happy with. About the same as a hard disk so you could get costs down to < $100, and not have any OS license issues (ie your disk dies, or your CPU/mobo or RAM).

Most ppl, are just going to be happy to spend the $600, on a "decent" PC and enjoy the eye candy of Vista. In fact perhaps irunning a "resource Hog" well, will actually becine a source of pride to them, as they chuckle at improverished friends extolling XP. So when Compiler says "It would run even faster with XP" he's absolutely right (most cases) but it's missing the point; which is "How do you maximise profits"?

Ask yourself who has interest in an ineffiecient somewhat incompatible OS?

- Hardware vendors (upgrades)
- Software vendors (upgrades)
- Media Conglomerates (DRM)
- Consumer
- Businesses
- Independant PC Guy

[Compiler]

RobLinux... You hit the nail right on.

Kinda like using the JAWS OF LIFE to open your refigerator door to get a glass of milk... But the frig is so "Shiney!".

[Compiler]

Originally Posted by steveie85

Actually compiler, Dell has never stoped offering it. If you went on there site and chose to compare systems you could choose to customize with Vista or XP. Also you could call and talk to an awsome customer service rep. and customize a system. Check your facts first!!

You know Steveie85... I wish you would stop trying to disregard my facts. *Sigh* you're talking about today... I already said you could get XP today with Dell and other BIG companies. You've mis-quoted me or mis-read my statements several times already (without anything from you when its pointed out)...

Here is an article: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7010
more:
http://www.gadgetell.com/2007/04/del...opular-demand/
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/0...einstates.html
http://blogs.business2.com/apple/200...witches_b.html

Hmmm... guess everyone else just made this up everything above, about Dell.

For fun: http://davesays.wordpress.com/2007/03/
http://vista.blorge.com/2007/07/05/d...ws-vista-woes/


Remember folks, if I went with Vista... One of my clients would have spent an extra 4000 or so... to get simular performance, but nothing actually added in terms of functionality or productivity.

[steveie85]

You can't blame Microsoft. You gotta look at the hardware people too. They are a large part of the blame. I know Dell never stoped offering XP. I had the choice in Feb. when I this year when I bought my laptop. Plus I had been looking at Dell laptops for about 6 months while I decided what I wanted!! So don't say I didn't misunderstand you. I understood you perfectly. You misunderstood me. Read carefully!!

[RobLinux]

Originally Posted by Compiler

RobLinux... You hit the nail right on.

Kinda like using the JAWS OF LIFE to open your refigerator door to get a glass of milk... But the frig is so "Shiney!".

But I left out ...

Journalists - Advertisements

Now take a look at this one, dude doesn't run Vista (does XP), doesn't run Linux but he's qualified to say that Vista is great and Linux "needs to catch up" http://www.interopnews.com/news/linu...tch-vista.html

This is sorta funny thread but is useful because it shows how distorted info can be, and what tosh ends up in the press. But you'll notice he does have certain essentials sussed, like

"Windows client OS revenue grew to $4.1 billion in the quarter, up a sizzling 25% year-over-year, driven mostly by rapid consumer uptake of Vista on the back of strong PC unit sales growth through the OEM channel."

Consider "Ready-Boost" and all those lovely USB flash drives ppl push to the gullible, do you think they really worry that the feature doesn't help much in that case?

The whole point is the bottom line.

[Orumph]

Opera 9.x = Security through Obscurity

It was the same with Firefox till the masses started using it and the hackers started attacking because of those masses.

You think Linux is really so much more secure out of the box!? Only to a slight point.
And mostly again "Security through Obscurity".

Look at Mac Leopard. They left a big old hole and took forever to even catch it. Had they had the market share that MS does, they would have been shitting all over themselves. Unfortunately it was quietly brushed under the table and they came out with new commercials of "undeserved" Vista bashing. the latest one talking about the early adopters who bought in between release day and about June or July. And all of that should be blamed squarely on the shoulders of the driver writers and software vendors not taking the warnings seriously and sitting with their thumbs up their butts. They had well over a year to be ready before release date and like XP release they ignored it.

The others being the software dev's who wrote software the way they wanted, not to Microsoft standards which would run just fine in vista. This was not to tell vendors what to do cause they have the power, it was for security, so you could run XP the way it was meant to be run, the same way vista is meant to be run. From a standard user account, using the Run as admin only when needed. The same way that Linux runs and supposedly Mac (without the glaring let any hacker access root hole).

Do software writers write thier software any way they won't? or to linux standards not opening root access to anything and everything. microsoft has been quite liberal/slack in the past about this and now they are enforcing it and everyone shits on them for it.

You want security? Then don't buy any PC.

Face it, social engineering is going to circumvent any, and I do mean any security period.
Including Linux.

The only truly secure computer is one without a power supply.

[steveie85]

The whole hardware and software bashing I think is unfair. Yes they sat on there hands and didn't do nothing but They only had about 6months to scramble and rewrite drivers and software as Microsoft did have issues before they released Vista. These issues were with the "Longhorn" system. They reworked it a little, well actually a lot and viola we have Vista. So they didn't have a year or more. While yes the developers are to blame, but only partly. The other part of the blame goes to Microsoft.

Linux, Mac, Opera and all the others are as secure as Windows. There is always gona be away to hack a computer and use it for evil. I agree with Orumph, the only secure computer is one without a power supply, or well maybe one not connected to the net is just as secure. If everyone took the proper security measures, ie. AV, Spyware/malware detectors then everything would be a little better. Oh yea one other thing, the only way to truly eliminate the threat of hackers and virus'/malware is through education. Lets educate the world about this stuff and we can make it go away.

[RobLinux]

Originally Posted by Orumph

Opera 9.x = Security through Obscurity

It was the same with Firefox till the masses started using it and the hackers started attacking because of those masses.

Yes, on Opera, No on FF, it had published source code that ppl could inspect. There's no obsccurity, it uses published protocols and is implemented with code available for inspection.

You think Linux is really so much more secure out of the box!? Only to a slight point.
And mostly again "Security through Obscurity".

That's rubbish. Commercial OS vendors have had long standing poor track record on facing up to security issues and releasing info to Admins, needed to secure systems.

Every enterprise Linux distro, has a lot of attention to security, and also regular easily installable updates when issues are found. These updates frequently fix quite small issues, which would not in themselves permit a break in, or a privilege escalation of local user. There's also been an underlying security model, no need to plaster on crap like UAC which then gets turned off by irritated home users.

Look at Mac Leopard. They left a big old hole and took forever to even catch it. Had they had the market share that MS does, they would have been shitting all over themselves.

Nonsense M$ had absolutely loads of holes, did nothing for very long time, and there systems have had the most appalling track record on security, so much so that they have had to play catch up and emphasise it heavily in recent years or lose much business in companies. Furthermore they released application features that compounded the problem, despite being warned by many ppl of the dangers of the approach they took. Apple are an example of commercial vendor failing to react promptly on a security issue.

There's a reason that so many ISPs, and big Internet Servers, do not run commercial OS. Think about it... Why was hotmail based on Free BSD? Why do ISPs use Linux heavily?

If security was poor then they'd be shelling out top $, they actually deployed and built the net with those systems because they were better, more secure; than proprietary alternatives.



Vista & XP have improved the security, and it looks like M$ are taking Internet requirements more seriously, but it seems that most feel purchasing a virus scanner and some kind of firewall, and anti- spam/ spyware is necessary.

Do software writers write thier software any way they won't? or to linux standards not opening root access to anything and everything. microsoft has been quite liberal/slack in the past about this and now they are enforcing it and everyone shits on them for it.

If you look into it properly, you'ld find that untrusted applications can be sandboxed, and with projects like SELinux and AppAmor, as well as virtualisation, an admin has many ways to restrict what a poorly written program can do.

Face it, social engineering is going to circumvent any, and I do mean any security period.
Including Linux. The only truly secure computer is one without a power supply.

Whilst this is true it's not very useful. In practice security is a trade off, with practicality and sometimes usability and convenience.

UNIX/Linux supported 1 time passwords in the 90's that doesn't mean I had to use them everywhere, just for certain security critical facilities.

[Compiler]

Originally Posted by Orumph

The only truly secure computer is one without a power supply.

True....

But I never got a virus infection on my C=128!

[Compiler]

Originally Posted by steveie85

The whole hardware and software bashing I think is unfair. Yes they sat on there hands and didn't do nothing but They only had about 6months to scramble and rewrite drivers and software as Microsoft did have issues before they released Vista. These issues were with the "Longhorn" system. They reworked it a little, well actually a lot and viola we have Vista. So they didn't have a year or more. While yes the developers are to blame, but only partly. The other part of the blame goes to Microsoft.

I don't agree. While the developers did have more than a year to actually work with a beta vista. microsoft *IS* the biggest cause of problems because of their more expensive and complex and DRMed validation process. So the developers of software and hardware have to PAY more and spend more money to get the stamp of approval from microsoft. Now, to a certain degree - this is a GOOD thing, if the driver/software would be validiated as 'bug free" too. Hence, when you BOUGHT new printers from HP, etc... in the instructions it would tell you (the end user) TO IGNORE / DISREGARD the POP-UP warning that you are installing a non-valid/unsigned version of a driver/etc. gee, thanks.

So 6 months into vista, limted and bad drivers, and important programs that didn't work... for an OS that is NO different than the previous one.

Oh yea one other thing, the only way to truly eliminate the threat of hackers and virus'/malware is through education. Lets educate the world about this stuff and we can make it go away.

The avg person has trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time. 20+ years of GUI and most people DO NOT UNDERSTAND BASICS... This is why the iPhone *IS* a great product.... its not powerful, but its SUPER easy to use.