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#1 ·
Just read this article in my local news outlet:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news...guns-private-property/zRM04JjmW4S7OKZiwEmMuM/

Laura Cutilletta, managing attorney for the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said the statistics don't bear that out.

"If guns made you safer we would have the lowest crime rate in the world because we have so many guns on our streets," she said. "And yet our gun death rate is so much higher than many other countries. So obviously it is not working the way that the gun rights people are saying it is."
So I went to Wikipedia to look at the stats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate#List

Yes, we do have a more gun deaths than most other civilized countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate.jpg

But look how horrendous the homicide rate is in the US compared to the rest in that above chart.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Homicides_compared_to_gun_per_capita._.png

Is this a problem of too many guns.....or more a society that's lost it's moral center?

I think it's the latter.

John.
 
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#2 ·
.................................................................Is this a problem of too many guns.....or more a society that's lost it's moral center?

I think it's the latter.

John.
Disclaimer: I own many guns and I'm a liberal. I do agree with your last statement - it's moral decay. As a responsible gun owner I also believe in tighter gun laws and enforcing those we have on the books and attempting to prevent nuts from owning guns. I believe in every gun purchase being checked for criminal activity. I have a concealed handgun license; I've had training on proper use of guns; I took the mandated course in Texas to qualify for a CHL and do not believe in Constitutional Carry laws which allow any scumbag to carry a handgun without training or knowledge. Although now legal in Texas I do not open carry - I have no one I wish to impress and I quit playing cops and robbers / cowboys and Indians around 12 years of age - in short, I believe civilian open carrying is juvenile. I do open carry when in the field / rural areas, but never in suburban /city.

BTW, I do not look to our current president for moral leadership - or anything else for that matter.
 
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#9 ·
Disclaimer: I own many guns and I'm a liberal. I do agree with your last statement - it's moral decay. As a responsible gun owner I also believe in tighter gun laws and enforcing those we have on the books and attempting to prevent nuts from owning guns. I believe in every gun purchase being checked for criminal activity. I have a concealed handgun license; I've had training on proper use of guns; I took the mandated course in Texas to qualify for a CHL and do not believe in Constitutional Carry laws which allow any scumbag to carry a handgun without training or knowledge. Although now legal in Texas I do not open carry - I have no one I wish to impress and I quit playing cops and robbers / cowboys and Indians around 12 years of age - in short, I believe civilian open carrying is juvenile. I do open carry when in the field / rural areas, but never in suburban /city.
Agree with everything. Except the BTW. :D :D

I gotta tell you. I'm thinking about CHL for certain circumstances.
 
#3 ·
Hi Wino :)

Registered Republican.....but that's 'up in the air right now' ;)

I also have a CC in Ohio, but don't carry. Being almost 71 yrs of age, I just don't hang out at the places I used to nor do I want to.
I grew up on a 100 acre farm so my background is culturally different to plat and city people. A firearm was seen as a tool on the farm. Particularly shotguns and 22 cal rifles.

I agree with your common sense approach to gun laws.

About the only open carry I can remember ( legal in Ohio ) have been some sales people in gun shops and a few gun racks in pickups during hunting season. And at Goodman's Gun and Knife shows .
Here, many if not most shooting incidents seem to involve stolen/illegally owned pistols.

I haven't seen any stats that show incidents with legal CC.


John
 
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#4 ·
In Texas licensed carriers breaking law with gun is around 0.03% of gun related crimes, if memory serves me well, which is close to not much at all. I'm 75, live in a dying neighborhood, too old and poor to move plus it's MY home. I never leave home without my EDC. There are just too many crazies in our area of + 1.5 million people (I believe we are now the 5th largest, down from #9 city). Same here, most gun crimes are gang, theft, road rage, passion related and most with illegally obtained guns by people that should never have been able to own a gun of any kind.

I was brought up around guns my entire life with a family of hunters and gun enthusiast (all liberal, believe it or not). I've carried guns everywhere I'v traveled in continental USA and for sure when camping and backpacking - more for protection from two legged than four. LOL
 
#5 ·
2 things.

The list makes it clear that 2 thirds of the US deaths are suicide.

The red/blue chart shows that America is awash with guns but in that context Total Homicides actually looks quite small.

As to the attorney's original point, I've very rarely come across stories of situations being defused by armed good guys. It's (nothing more than) my opinion that packing for protection only increases the probability of someone getting shot.
 
#6 ·
................................................................As to the attorney's original point, I've very rarely come across stories of situations being defused by armed good guys. It's (nothing more than) my opinion that packing for protection only increases the probability of someone getting shot.
It does happen and has happened many times in my city where a licensed concealed carrier has prevented disaster in physical attacks on themselves or others (the others is where it gets to be a sticky wicket) or during robberies of person or businesses. We had one recently in a mall just last month. I agree that it increases the chances of someone being shot - hopefully that would be the felon or bad guy and not an innocent bystander. I'll grant it's not an every day occurrence, but it does happen but usually doesn't make anything but local or state news. If you were to believe the crazy right, that would be due to the lefty media not reporting good stories about guns.
 
#7 ·
Hi bomb#21 :)

I saw the figures. We have a high rate of gun deaths, But we also have twice the number of suicides as intended homicides.
With gun deaths as high as they are, it's rather obvious that the gun related suicide rate reflects an unstable society.
I have no objection to restricting firearms from the criminal elements or the mentally ill elements.

I've very rarely come across stories of situations being defused by armed good guys.
It is rare.
But it has been noted that violent crime, in general, has gone down and it does seem to have a correlation to the enacting of CC laws.

The press plays on murders in cities like Chicago and Detroit.
It simply looks like enforcement is failing.
CC won't likely have much of an impact, imo.
It will take political pressure on the courts and a willingness to support police activity.
But what do we too often have? Politicians and courts that appeal to the base desires of a society bent on drug abuse and too often, plain and simple crime to support their wants. Add into this mix a couple cowboy police officers and you have an adversarial conflict between communities and the law, and in general social unrest.

So there is often the realization ....and I think Wino is expressing it....we are too often on our own in a society that has bad elements.

There are too many guns in the hands of those that are for one reason or another, irresponsible and no gun laws in the US have ever had enough influence to restrict that ownership... usually because they are anti social and not interested in obeying society's laws or mentally ill and unable to conceive the concept of morality .

Would I like a safe gun free society. Sure would. But it has to be made safe, first. And that goes beyond making more laws, it requires a society to heal itself and I'm not seeing any attempt by our leaders. To the contrary.

So when I read of an attorney ragging on legal gun ownership, the first thing I think of is how long will it be before I see her name on a ballot.

<end of rant>

John
 
#8 ·
Reckon this will be my rant...
<here begins start of rant>

There are two types of gun owners - the responsible ones and the irresponsible ones. By that I mean the irresponsibles are going to be accident prone, criminals or the mentally or emotionally unstable, and no gun legislation can control that, as much as some folks wish it would.
No law can control emotional crimes nor mental illness.
What I'm saying will be nothing new or something you all haven't already considered, it's just my 2 centavos worth.

I like guns, I use them recreationally, target practice, that sort of thing... but some folks still use firearms for hunting to feed their family, as generations have done before us, before there were big crowded cities. Some people now need them for defense in crime ridden areas, just for some sense of peace of mind that they might be able to defend themselves.
Some have actually used them in the defense of others, if not themselves, and I'm sure everyone has seen this recent story.
There are many stories when guns have saved innocent lives, not taken them. But all most of us ever hear of are the tragedies involving guns.

I like guns in the way as the guy next door admires his car for the fine German (or wherever) engineering, or the person that truly appreciates a fine vintage wine, well crafted... (hiya Wino ;)) ... or the doctor that can rely on a particular precise surgical instrument to make sure his patient lives, a pilot that relies on the integrity of his aircraft to get the passengers in his charge safely to the destination.

Kids like guns because the first exposure is frequently (now days) a video game, where the consequences of a real gun, in real life will be a concept foreign to them....you shoot , you win in the video...but sometimes the level starts over because you get "killed"...no real thing except a bit of frustration.

I'm not NOT going to into the "video game = violent behavior" thing, nor will I get involved in any political aspects (which, as history has proven = violence). I teach my children and grand children about gun safety FIRST, and the responsibility entailed. I let them shoot real weapons when they are old enough to understand the consequences of their actions. And some of them understand, and some never want to do it again.
I shoot guns because there are fun for me (safety first), but always realizing they are mostly designed to be weapons. I also realize that many people in the world that have no respect for life, and do crazy things.. And you never know who that could be....

Would I ever shoot some one? God I hope not!
If my life, or my family were in grave danger... (is there any other kind?)... could I even do it?
I don't know, and hope I never need to know.

I keep one at my bedside...just in case...because you never know...

Let me end with a quote by some guy named Clint Eastwood:
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.

<and there seems to be end of rant>
 
#10 ·
"There are many stories when guns have saved innocent lives, not taken them. But all most of us ever hear of are the tragedies involving guns."

That part lost me. Are you saying you're not most of us and/or have access to alternative info?

"I keep one at my bedside...just in case...because younever know..."

Apparently it's possible to shoot yourself while sleepwalking.
 
#11 · (Edited)
That part lost me. Are you saying you're not most of us and/or have access to alternative info?
"There are many stories when guns have saved innocent lives, not taken them. But all most of us ever hear of are the tragedies involving guns."
That part lost me. Are you saying you're not most of us and/or have access to alternative info?

"I keep one at my bedside...just in case...because you never know..."

Apparently it's possible to shoot yourself while sleepwalking.
By "us" I mean as regular folks that see the TV, or get news online. And you have the same access to information as anyone else, so there are sources available to all. Never heard of any one committing suicide without thinking about and planning it first, or acting on impulse at the moment. But anything is possible. I don't sleepwalk....to my knowledge.... I have heard of shooting one's self in the foot, though...
Guns are even included in the Olympics! ...huh...

Lemme tell you something...unless YOU have been burglarized, your home broken into and all your things you've paid good money for have been taken away from you while you were at work, or whatever...vandalized your home in the process, and even taken PERSONAL things that were of no worth to anyone but you...things your grandmother gave you... memorabilia from your life..

the only thing personal they didn't take was my wife's ashes....Dude they even stole my electric tooth brush, and who in the hell would do that?

This happened to me the day before Thanksgiving. And they stole my food from the fridge and the freezer, also . ...had I been there the mere sight of a gun, even the sound of a 12 gauge shotgun racking a round in the chamber would have scared them away.They were in my house for a long time. The cops were no help.

Four years later another break in. I wasn't gone from the house for less than 2 hours, again at work and they weren't in for 10 minutes it seems.... the obvious things taken - kicked in the door, the TV, DVD player, also guns..anything they could lay hands on quickly...different perps, but again the cops were of no help.This again happened to me on New Year's Eve, so I'm wary of holidays...
Perhaps you see why I'm more cautious and paranoid these days. Again, if I'd been there..

I'm sorry for boring all with this, as I don't want to antagonize or prod anyone into a debate and I was actually going to bow out of this discussion, from my last post, as I mentioned, just a rant,... but you have no idea how violated you feel when you have a break-in and the thugs and slugs go through your closet, your bathroom, look under your mattress..and take anything they wish that doesn't belong to them....
I would gently remind you ,bomb #21, your handle includes many interpretations the TSA might find interesting...

BUT at the same time I hope you realize I'm not starting an argument, nor insulting you... it's just that your post evoked an emotional thing I felt compelled to type out.
it was hard to type without much cursing very much, but this is a family site...
 
#12 ·
I've had my handle for many years. I don't live in America. I've yet to be arrested for having a dubious handle. That's all I have to say about that.

"your post evoked an emotional thing I felt compelled to type out. it was hard to type without much cursing very much"

Well, one can see that some editing occurred. Thus one can argue that it's harder to swear online than in real life since with the former it doesn't take effect until you've pressed Enter. An action that can be compared to pulling the trigger.

Let me put it this way. It's really hard to shoot someone. Owning a gun makes it easier. Loading it makes it even easier. Keeping it loaded and close (i.e not locked away) makes it even even easier.

When I read stuff like "had I been there the mere sight of a gun, even the sound of a 12 gauge shotgun racking a round in the chamber would have scared them away" I think "if sight and sound make a difference, why bother with real bullets?".

(I would gently remind you, TA, that if a subject's too close to home you can always steer clear of it. Namasté)
 
#13 · (Edited)
..................
Let me put it this way. It's really hard to shoot someone. Owning a gun makes it easier. Loading it makes it even easier. Keeping it loaded and close (i.e not locked away) makes it even even easier.

When I read stuff like "had I been there the mere sight of a gun, even the sound of a 12 gauge shotgun racking a round in the chamber would have scared them away" I think "if sight and sound make a difference, why bother with real bullets?".

.........................
Extending your logic comes to the conclusion of:

"why bother defending one's self?"

Is defending one's self a bother to anyone else other than the perpetrator of a crime? (remember, my position is one of responsible gun ownership that doesn't include criminals and the mentally disturbed )
Your example focuses around the security of a home, not concealed carry. A much different environment covered in the US by different laws.

Making gun ownership illegal for the general population does not focus on correcting the illegal use of guns by criminals and the mentally disturbed nor the violence they inflict by other means.

In a perfect world, law-biding citizens wouldn't feel the need for self defense.

John, a law-biding citizen with a CC license and home defense.
 
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#15 ·
Extending the logic raises the question - why would you? :D

Is defending one's self a bother to anyone else other thanthe perpetrator of a crime? Well, now and again kids get hold of home security items and bother themselves to death. So I've heard.

Example focuses around the security of a home, not concealed carry - agreed, notwithstanding I didn't introduce the tangent. However, a point raised might apply to home AND abroad, namely:

Say you're out at night and see someone being mugged. You approach, shout "hey", fire a blank into the air, shout "the next one goes in your skull". Is it possible that would deter the mugger?

To be clear, I don't know guns. It may even be possible to load one blank first, live thereafter. I wouldn't mind having a go on one though, to see what it's like. :)
 
#16 ·
Hello bomb!

You bring up some valid concerns.

Wino and I don't see eye to eye on many things, but there are some. I wish I could take some of his posts about responsible gun safety and blast it to the entire world. I feel (just me) that there would be a significant reduction in accidental deaths with guns, if people weren't such idiots.
 
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#19 ·
To me (just me....) part of the challenge with these arguments..
There is very little good data to support crimes thwarted. The statistics in finding crimes not committed is much harder than the date for people killed with a gun.
 
#27 ·
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#31 ·
Just facts.

Stated earlier in a Wikipedia chart:
Gun death rate by homicide 3.43 ....by suicide 6.69...per 100,000.

IMO, obviously a troubled society.

But how does that compare to, say, auto, drug and general cause deaths?

CDC has this
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm
2014
All injury deaths

Number of deaths: 199,756
Deaths per 100,000 population: 62.6

All poisoning deaths

Number of deaths: 51,966
Deaths per 100,000 population: 16.3

Motor vehicle traffic deaths

Number of deaths: 33,736
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.6

All firearm deaths

Number of deaths: 33,599
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.5
A break down for drug deaths

Mortality: Drug poisoning deaths

Deaths per 100,000 population: 14.8 (2014)
Drug poisoning opioid analgesic deaths per 100,000 population: 5.9 (2014)
Drug poisoning heroin deaths per 100,000 population: 3.3 (2014)
While the above neither argues for or against gun control, imo, it does show a rather twisted view on how the value of life is determined by our activities as a society.
 
#32 ·
Comparing death method numbers is a red herring IMHO. Gun nuts are infatuated with comparing auto to gun, which only have death in common and have nothing else to connect the two. Guns have one use - killing - that's what they were designed for - yes, they can be sporting (target, skeet, game, etc). The next argument you get when banning guns arise is why not ban auto's, knives, baseball bats, ropes, etal that can also be used to kill (animal or human or space invaders). Another red herring - everything else also has a useful purpose, not just to kill as is a gun. I do agree with gunners that "people kill, not guns" and same applies to all other violent methods of death.

Wish I knew a way to reduce gun deaths, but don't have a clue. Our constitution, as currently interpreted, doesn't allow us to prevent anyone from legally obtaining a weapon and in no way prevents people with bad intentions from buying or stealing a gun. When nothing happened after Sandy Hook to reduce chances of a slaughter, I pretty much figured it was a hopeless cause. Maybe by 2100's some semblance of gun control may be introduced, but I seriously doubt it.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Comparing death method numbers is a red herring IMHO. ..................................
I agree if the point is to rationalize unrestricted gun ownership.
My point is, and I should have been more obvious, a society can't logically address one problem involving deaths with such critical abhorrence while taking lesser positions on more serious mortality issues.
And that is what the stats I posted infer when compared to many current political positions.
 
#35 ·
It might be easier to define the problem than solve it.

The real problem to solve is obvious. How can we stop the killing in a society that's becoming more morally decrepit as time passes?
The problem has become a political football in a reality where both political parties perpetuate the decline.

How are people made to be moral?

If it's taught by example, we have too few politicians and religious leaders showing us the way and too many of us that continually support the elements leading that are part of the problem.
And parents, more concerned with consumerism and the ability to afford the credit terms......than the family? Or getting high on opioids. Or alcohol. Or pot.
Just reading the news daily demonstrates a wide scale of depravity too great to list here.

If it's laws, it's obvious that's failing.

Maybe there is no solution as long as the voters of the US seriously consider electing leaders that hold groups like the Aryan Brotherhood and the KKK in high regard. as currently seen.
Or continually press for a socialist way of life at the expense of the middle class as seen in the past administration.

And I shouldn't leave out the neo-con corporate socialists of the Bush era that now reimage themselves as Libertarians following that nutcase R Paul in his quest for an intellectual autocracy ( dictatorship that is ) or the loons of the Tea Party that want to reimage government back to the early 1800's.

Like I posted. Easier to define than to solve ;)

But in the mean time, I have my CC license for personal defense if needed, and several firearms in my home.
 
#38 ·
Maybe you haven't noticed, Switzerland is on a far away continent with different cultural and social attitudes?

We could be discussing Australia where they ban all civilian firearms, but the same applies.

To solve America's problems, the problems have to be solved with solutions that address our society, not necessarily their's.
 
#37 ·
"
"Just read this article in my local news outlet:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news...guns-private-property/zRM04JjmW4S7OKZiwEmMuM/

Laura Cutilletta, managing attorney for the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said the statistics don't bear that out.

"If guns made you safer we would have the lowest crime rate in the world because we have so many guns on our streets," she said. "And yet our gun death rate is so much higher than many other countries. So obviously it is not working the way that the gun rights people are saying it is.""

what a bunch of crap!!!!!!-USA is a huge country with one forth the same population as china with many various laws and the places that do allow legal guns have a lot less crime than chicago where everythings illegal
 
#39 ·
Yes. So the problem goes beyond legal ownership by mentally stable people.
The US has become a nation with too many unstable/criminal people.
General morality seems to continually decline.
Both political parties push gun rights as a political football with out addressing the core issue.

Little respect for life.

As a generality, one party advocates removing all firearms, the other advocates guns for all.
Result is, on one hand, innocent people can't defend themselves from the insanity of the times, on the other hand, the mentally disturbed and criminal elements have easy access to guns legally and/or illegally.

That's the image of a society in decline.

Here's a link again to a news outlet in my area showing the insanity of gun regulation:

https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...or-candidates-far-apart/i8Z8UEeItQQei0Z2a6773

If you read it, notice that nothing is addressed about the mental state of the area.
It's in a crisis over drug abuse, specifically opioid abuse. Our problem with opioid abuse is getting national attention while politicians polarize the gun issue while ignoring the moral decline.

So, here's the flip side of 'no guns':

https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...arry-guns-high-school/200gZDakwOg2RbKMJReDDL/

Not only is the guy trying to weasel out of stupid comments, his original position is still his current position, legally arm students with 'long guns'.
Remember? This is an argument made where drug abuse is rampant.

And so a polarized public performs knee-jerk solutions and not much will likely change other than written law.
 
#42 ·
"Should criminals convicted of gun related crimes and violence in general, be allowed to legally own firearms?"
Nope, but that's already a law, if a felony were committed. But bad guys generally have little respect for law and order.
But if some nut wishes to harm another human there are plenty of things that can be used as weapons. Been done throughout history, long before guns were even invented.
Of course we all hoped that humanity would have evolved beyond that sort of thing by now, but that's simply not an accurate statement.

And perhaps a hopeless hope.
 
#43 ·
Morning RT :)

I tossed out those question, not on their present status but to see what stepenwolf's position is. :)

I kinda doubt he'll respond, he seldom does.
But, there's the chance.
 
#44 ·
'Morning John :)

Ya know it's St Patrick's day and I have one small box of green tipped ammo...perhaps I will unleash a few (in a purely recreational fashion) at a paper target, or perhaps a water jug with green dye in it, as the weather is going to be quite mild.

Won't bother my neighbors, they shoot more than I do, unless my buddy comes over...and we'll shoot til we get tired - which doesn't take much anymore ;)
And then there's the cleaning :rolleyes:
 
#46 ·
trump and guns and "mental illness"?a soldier with ptsd? i dont know most are ok i guess...american psychiatry is mumbo jumbo

theres some book called psychiatrists the men behind hitler-they wield power over us and doctors demand we give kids vaccines

the usa is so screwed, up its unreal

i probably have ptsd ,ocd ,maybe schzoaffective -no tickets no criminal history
 
#48 ·
In my humble opinion, some of your post doesn't make sense.
And if you do have schizoaffective disorder, that might be why.

The issue of mental illness is a concern that spans the society, not that it's linked only to soldiers. Of the school killings, it's been mostly students doing the killing so they wouldn't have been exposed to the terrors of warfare that brings about PTSD in soldiers.
No doubt victinized students can be afflicted with PTSD when the mentally ill try to murder them in a mass killing

I have no idea why you injected Hitler into the topic. Or vaccines.

Yes, the US is currently screwed up.
One bad President after another, a Congress polarized to the point of being ineffectual and a Supreme Court whose Judges are too often elected by politics rather than their merits.
A populace that votes on sound bites and emotion while consuming legendary amounts of addictive drugs.
A growing populace that no longer seems to want to protect and advance the concept of democracy.
The idiotic idea that corporate socialism is a form of capitalism and that the trickle down theory advances the middle class.
Toss in the left wing socialists and you have the perfect storm for a failing society.

:D

Why do I laugh?

Because it's all so obvious.
 
#49 ·
You have a point there.

But I have a hole in my brain the size of my fist.
Why is it I can view the situation objectively while much of our society is polarized to extreme positions that do few any good?
Why does the general public accept the sound bites of politicians unquestionably?
Why are our standards of the past eroding away as time passes?
The above questions were mostly rhetorical.
IMO, the public has had it too easy for too long. It's gotten lazy and falls back on blaming others for their own status in life. Too many desire to be 'king' on a pauper's budget or entitlements.
But the leaders make out very well with promises they seldom keep ;)
 
#54 ·
.......................

dont label me too much i voted for jimmy carter once and clinton once and john kerry and im not a total trump groupie
I've voted around a bit also.
I'm a registered Republican. But the mood of the party was a lot different when I first joined some 50 years ago.
Too many times I've voted for the 'lesser of two evils'.
I'm done with that.
I'll either vote for someone responsible with the idea of managing and protecting a society, or I won't vote.
So I didn't vote on the Presidential ticket in the last election.
 
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