AlbertB
Thread Starter
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2002
- Messages
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This thread started as a message of well wishing to Americans concerning the Space Shuttle disaster but it developed into a chat around America's view of the outside world. I have posted here the, unfortunately long, relevant bits to see if anyone wants to come in on it and to give the original thread its own rightful space.
Original:
Deepest sympathies to you all over there on the other side of the pond. To the families and friends and to the whole nation in mourning.
Don't dwell on the negative side of the Arab response to the tragedy, do you really think it is anything other than inevitable given some of the history and the "world age" of the Arabs as a race. (No that is NOT a rascist stance, just an acceptance of the way things are historically and internationally). Use it as an opportunity to think seriously about what it is in America's position and actions in the world which can engender such hate! Viewing your own actions from the point of "what could we have done to cause it" rather than just shrieking "Yes sir, outstanding sir" is not anti-American but one of the pointers to the state of advancement of your culture.
We had to learn do the same exercise in relation to the good old British Empire, and we came out wiser and stronger doncha know!
LANmaster replies:
Thanks Albert.
Noted, There are some things that America has done for which I am not particulary proud. But the good America does worldwide should far overshadow some of the mistakes. The Arab world hates our ideology, and our religious beliefs and freedoms.
Yes, I agree that the British change from a Monarchy to a Democracy was a good change indeed.
I responded, getting longer:
Yeah sure LANMaster, SOME of the Arab world hates your ideology. I do think though that you will find the vast majority of it, and the rest of the developing world come to that, hates the way that American attitudes towards your "Best in the World" lifestyle and big business interests, bulldoze their way into a country and impose their wishes on it. We have our own lifestyles and we think they are the best in the world. Strange but true! Your absolute consumer lifestyle does not go down well with any of the rest of the world that I know of. It is your chosen way of life, we all accept that, but it creates a ravenous appetite for the resources of the rest of the world. And your businesses which feed your consumer appetite think they have an absolute right to pillage and destroy any other culture that stops them from getting what they want. It is this which has created more hatred towards you than any other thing you do, and as you say there is SO much good in that bundle.
It is totally understandable that, in a country big enough to class as 50 separate countries, most Americans are unable to step outside their own world and see it from the outside. Clinton may have had his faults, I don't know too much about your internal politics, but his outward looking stance was a breath of fresh air for the rest of the world. I listened and applauded when he addressed our, er - Tony Blair's, Labour party conference recently. He truly sees the fact that Americans are going to have to sacrifice some of their high flying lifestyle to bring about a better relationship with the rest of the world for everybody's mutual benefit, ultimately including your own. Countries like my own do not breed many home grown " Yank hatin' " terrorists, but as a parent I loathe the way that my child is subjected to pressures to pick up YOUR way of life in order to feed your economy and to reject our own. The pressure to adopt the bad gutter, not street, culture that represents only the worst of all that America stands for is interminable over here. It warps the thinking of our young and will ultimately lead to such a universal crash that the world will never recover.
The older countries like my own and many of the other European states have a history of opening up the world. Between us we imposed our cultures on every other nation on the face of the Earth, for their benefit! It took much bloodshed before we released this hold and allowed them self determination. And we are all better off for it. You are now in that position. You have an economic stranglehold on the rest of the world and we are all choking with it. It boils out in ways like the Arab hatred, immoral irrational and unforgiveable, but explainable. Your country has to learn to let go. Assist do not drive, and frankly, with your position as still an immature adolescent superpower, only 50years after all, you need to step back and adopt a more mature and giving stance. Think about it as moving from a strong vibrant 20 year old bursting with hormones and knowing all, so he thinks, to a more mature 30 year old parent, who sacrifices for his children. I really don't mean to be patronising and I realise it might come over that way but if you think about it you will see what I am stumbling to get at here.
I have always maintained that I have never met an American I do not like, but put them all together into a nation and... not so sure. You really have much to think about as a nation.
And finally LANmaster came back with:
Before I respond, I want to thank you for being thoughtful in your opinion. Much of what you say is fair. Some of it is unfair, but you believe in your opinion and have expressed it in a thoughtful manner. Note: This subject should move to a different thread, as this is intedned for discussion about the Columbia shuttle disaster. If you wish to respond more about this, we should start a new thread or post in a more appropriate spot. Agreed?
Some of that "best in the world" attitude is justified.
Our lifestyle is somewhat consumer driven. I don't agree that the US bulldozes its way into countries and impose her wishes on unwilling countries, unless, of course we are at war with the country in question. However, your criticism of big business having too much influence on certain couties has some merit. I would like to see the US change some of that policy, but not all of it. Many poverty striken and starving countries have benefitted by the presence of many of those companies. Jobs have been created for those that want them. Many economies abroad have been able to educate (their own way) and feed their populations as a direct result of the presence many of of these American businesses. But to your point, I feel that some American businesses abroad have exploted some populations without giving a fair leg up as was the intention of certain trade agreements.
And the UK gave the US the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and Led Zeppelin. Their influence on the young people in the US in the 60's and 70's is undeniable. Yet I do not sit here and blame the UK for the drug culture of that era.
quote:
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The older countries like my own and many of the other European states have a history of opening up the world. Between us we imposed our cultures on every other nation on the face of the Earth, for their benefit! It took much bloodshed before we released this hold and allowed them self determination. And we are all better off for it. You are now in that position. You have an economic stranglehold on the rest of the world and we are all choking with it.
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I don't totally agree with your point here.
quote:
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It boils out in ways like the Arab hatred, immoral irrational and unforgiveable, but explainable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree here too. Thank you for preceeding this with "immoral irrational and unforgiveable" but calling it "explainable" almost sounds like you're calling it deserved. The criticism may be deserved in some areas. I won't deny that, but the "hatred" to the extent of killing thousands of innocent American men, women, and children is NOT explainable", EVER!
quote:
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Your country has to learn to let go. Assist do not drive, and frankly, with your position as still an immature adolescent superpower, only 50years after all, you need to step back and adopt a more mature and giving stance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can buy in to some of that, and I believe the US is maturing, and will continue to.
quote:
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Think about it as moving from a strong vibrant 20 year old bursting with hormones and knowing all, so he thinks, to a more mature 30 year old parent, who sacrifices for his children. I really don't mean to be patronising and I realise it might come over that way but if you think about it you will see what I am stumbling to get at here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't take that as patronizing, and I see analogy you make. I have a 20 yr old Daughter and an 18 yr old Son. I see the point you have made and I won't argue with it, although I will remain neutral about it nonetheless.
quote:
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I have always maintained that I have never met an American I do not like, but put them all together into a nation and... not so sure. You really have much to think about as a nation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there's good and bad people in every culture. The larger the population, the more likely that it will have a higher number of those evil people. I am far from wealthy from an American standpoint. But 90% of the world population might consider me a very rich man. Many of them will envy my wealth and that of my countrymen. Many of them desire the opportunity to grow financially. Many of them are begging that the US step in, bring big business and help them feed their children. Many more still risk their lives and that of their family to illegally enter this country so that they can feed their children and get a job that affords them the ability to buy things like clothes, medicine, food, electricity, hot water, a clean home.
So please, don't sell America short for the good things that it does around the world. And don't support those who hate America, just because their children see a pair of American blue jeans and want them.
Please don't loathe America because your Daughter wants to buy American things, just because they are American. Blame your own government for saturating your stores. Heck, I have bought many British things just because they are British. I think it is a fine, and classy culture for the most part. And someday, I may even visit Wales. I have ancestors there. It is where much of my family originated. I hope you don't hold that against me.
So here we are. I have taken out some of the quotes where it speaks for itself or is clear from the previous posting what point is referrred to. And we continue from there.
Original:
Deepest sympathies to you all over there on the other side of the pond. To the families and friends and to the whole nation in mourning.
Don't dwell on the negative side of the Arab response to the tragedy, do you really think it is anything other than inevitable given some of the history and the "world age" of the Arabs as a race. (No that is NOT a rascist stance, just an acceptance of the way things are historically and internationally). Use it as an opportunity to think seriously about what it is in America's position and actions in the world which can engender such hate! Viewing your own actions from the point of "what could we have done to cause it" rather than just shrieking "Yes sir, outstanding sir" is not anti-American but one of the pointers to the state of advancement of your culture.
We had to learn do the same exercise in relation to the good old British Empire, and we came out wiser and stronger doncha know!
LANmaster replies:
Thanks Albert.
Noted, There are some things that America has done for which I am not particulary proud. But the good America does worldwide should far overshadow some of the mistakes. The Arab world hates our ideology, and our religious beliefs and freedoms.
Yes, I agree that the British change from a Monarchy to a Democracy was a good change indeed.
I responded, getting longer:
Yeah sure LANMaster, SOME of the Arab world hates your ideology. I do think though that you will find the vast majority of it, and the rest of the developing world come to that, hates the way that American attitudes towards your "Best in the World" lifestyle and big business interests, bulldoze their way into a country and impose their wishes on it. We have our own lifestyles and we think they are the best in the world. Strange but true! Your absolute consumer lifestyle does not go down well with any of the rest of the world that I know of. It is your chosen way of life, we all accept that, but it creates a ravenous appetite for the resources of the rest of the world. And your businesses which feed your consumer appetite think they have an absolute right to pillage and destroy any other culture that stops them from getting what they want. It is this which has created more hatred towards you than any other thing you do, and as you say there is SO much good in that bundle.
It is totally understandable that, in a country big enough to class as 50 separate countries, most Americans are unable to step outside their own world and see it from the outside. Clinton may have had his faults, I don't know too much about your internal politics, but his outward looking stance was a breath of fresh air for the rest of the world. I listened and applauded when he addressed our, er - Tony Blair's, Labour party conference recently. He truly sees the fact that Americans are going to have to sacrifice some of their high flying lifestyle to bring about a better relationship with the rest of the world for everybody's mutual benefit, ultimately including your own. Countries like my own do not breed many home grown " Yank hatin' " terrorists, but as a parent I loathe the way that my child is subjected to pressures to pick up YOUR way of life in order to feed your economy and to reject our own. The pressure to adopt the bad gutter, not street, culture that represents only the worst of all that America stands for is interminable over here. It warps the thinking of our young and will ultimately lead to such a universal crash that the world will never recover.
The older countries like my own and many of the other European states have a history of opening up the world. Between us we imposed our cultures on every other nation on the face of the Earth, for their benefit! It took much bloodshed before we released this hold and allowed them self determination. And we are all better off for it. You are now in that position. You have an economic stranglehold on the rest of the world and we are all choking with it. It boils out in ways like the Arab hatred, immoral irrational and unforgiveable, but explainable. Your country has to learn to let go. Assist do not drive, and frankly, with your position as still an immature adolescent superpower, only 50years after all, you need to step back and adopt a more mature and giving stance. Think about it as moving from a strong vibrant 20 year old bursting with hormones and knowing all, so he thinks, to a more mature 30 year old parent, who sacrifices for his children. I really don't mean to be patronising and I realise it might come over that way but if you think about it you will see what I am stumbling to get at here.
I have always maintained that I have never met an American I do not like, but put them all together into a nation and... not so sure. You really have much to think about as a nation.
And finally LANmaster came back with:
Before I respond, I want to thank you for being thoughtful in your opinion. Much of what you say is fair. Some of it is unfair, but you believe in your opinion and have expressed it in a thoughtful manner. Note: This subject should move to a different thread, as this is intedned for discussion about the Columbia shuttle disaster. If you wish to respond more about this, we should start a new thread or post in a more appropriate spot. Agreed?
Some of that "best in the world" attitude is justified.
Our lifestyle is somewhat consumer driven. I don't agree that the US bulldozes its way into countries and impose her wishes on unwilling countries, unless, of course we are at war with the country in question. However, your criticism of big business having too much influence on certain couties has some merit. I would like to see the US change some of that policy, but not all of it. Many poverty striken and starving countries have benefitted by the presence of many of those companies. Jobs have been created for those that want them. Many economies abroad have been able to educate (their own way) and feed their populations as a direct result of the presence many of of these American businesses. But to your point, I feel that some American businesses abroad have exploted some populations without giving a fair leg up as was the intention of certain trade agreements.
And the UK gave the US the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and Led Zeppelin. Their influence on the young people in the US in the 60's and 70's is undeniable. Yet I do not sit here and blame the UK for the drug culture of that era.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The older countries like my own and many of the other European states have a history of opening up the world. Between us we imposed our cultures on every other nation on the face of the Earth, for their benefit! It took much bloodshed before we released this hold and allowed them self determination. And we are all better off for it. You are now in that position. You have an economic stranglehold on the rest of the world and we are all choking with it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't totally agree with your point here.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It boils out in ways like the Arab hatred, immoral irrational and unforgiveable, but explainable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree here too. Thank you for preceeding this with "immoral irrational and unforgiveable" but calling it "explainable" almost sounds like you're calling it deserved. The criticism may be deserved in some areas. I won't deny that, but the "hatred" to the extent of killing thousands of innocent American men, women, and children is NOT explainable", EVER!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your country has to learn to let go. Assist do not drive, and frankly, with your position as still an immature adolescent superpower, only 50years after all, you need to step back and adopt a more mature and giving stance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can buy in to some of that, and I believe the US is maturing, and will continue to.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Think about it as moving from a strong vibrant 20 year old bursting with hormones and knowing all, so he thinks, to a more mature 30 year old parent, who sacrifices for his children. I really don't mean to be patronising and I realise it might come over that way but if you think about it you will see what I am stumbling to get at here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't take that as patronizing, and I see analogy you make. I have a 20 yr old Daughter and an 18 yr old Son. I see the point you have made and I won't argue with it, although I will remain neutral about it nonetheless.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have always maintained that I have never met an American I do not like, but put them all together into a nation and... not so sure. You really have much to think about as a nation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there's good and bad people in every culture. The larger the population, the more likely that it will have a higher number of those evil people. I am far from wealthy from an American standpoint. But 90% of the world population might consider me a very rich man. Many of them will envy my wealth and that of my countrymen. Many of them desire the opportunity to grow financially. Many of them are begging that the US step in, bring big business and help them feed their children. Many more still risk their lives and that of their family to illegally enter this country so that they can feed their children and get a job that affords them the ability to buy things like clothes, medicine, food, electricity, hot water, a clean home.
So please, don't sell America short for the good things that it does around the world. And don't support those who hate America, just because their children see a pair of American blue jeans and want them.
Please don't loathe America because your Daughter wants to buy American things, just because they are American. Blame your own government for saturating your stores. Heck, I have bought many British things just because they are British. I think it is a fine, and classy culture for the most part. And someday, I may even visit Wales. I have ancestors there. It is where much of my family originated. I hope you don't hold that against me.
So here we are. I have taken out some of the quotes where it speaks for itself or is clear from the previous posting what point is referrred to. And we continue from there.
