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Are there clear biblical passages about Abortion, or is it political?

Discussion in 'Controversial Topics' started by Ent, Mar 29, 2012.

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  1. buffoon

    buffoon

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    This abortion discussion will achieve what previous ones on these forums did.

    Nothing.

    The basic disparity existing between pro-life and pro-choice (here) boils down to the one thing that one party considers the abortion of a fetus murder, where the other one doesn't. The basic issue being that no agreement can be reached as to when a developing organism has become a person (i.e. life).

    The arguing, pro and con, of women's rights to their body is all very well, but hardly has any bearing on the issue.
    The rub lying in the first part of that sentence. Principles maybe but we do not ALL agree on abortion of a fetus being murder. And where some of us don't, the question of murder being wrong, self evident as that is, becomes moot as irrelevant to the topic.

    And I'm glad that universal logic has been arrived at. Now if somebody could give some enlightenment as to its definition ???? :p
     
  2. Ent

    Ent Josiah Trusted Advisor Thread Starter

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    That depends on your perspective. For me it offers a very good opportunity to show where Biblical principles can and should be applied outside the church, in contrast to the apparently prevalent view around these parts that truth is relative and what other people think of things is none of anyone else's business.

    Absolutely. I would point out though that this is the issue I'm waiting for any response on. If anything Nittiley acknowledges it as wrong, but keeps throwing up smoke clouds about when it should be accepted anyway and sees it exclusively as a question of women's rights.
    "even if you produced stats that demonstrated say, 80% of women get abortions because they 'hate babies' & 'enjoy murdering' them :rolleyes:, i wouldn't relinquish my right, or any other women's right to decide what to do in any pregnancy situation."


    That is very clear, but again there is an underlying flaw in this thinking in the unwillingness to accept that your disagreement could simply be wrong. What if I believed that killing disabled people (or insert any other group of people) isn't murder? It may be logically valid for me to assert that it's OK to murder disabled people with that rationalle, but the falsehood of the underlying reason makes the conclusion false.



    Universal logic defines the quality of an argument such that such that, given the truth of the reasons, the conclusion is guaranteed to be true.
    For example
    Given that all members of A are X
    and B is a member of A
    B is X.

    Explicitely (and universally) excluded are ad hominem arguments, circular reasoning arguments, slippery slope arguments, false dichotemies, and other forms of arguments called logical fallacies.
     
  3. Wino

    Wino

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    Pure politics and what the bible has to say about it is irrelevant.

    I'm anti-abortion, but pro choice. The argument that something alive outside a woman's body is the same as that inside a womans body is ridiculous. Calling an abortion murder just adds to the inanity.

    At the rate the right wing in the USA is rushing to protect that which isn't theirs to protect also adds to the silliness. I expect next they will be pushing the banning of mensuration, miscarriages, male masturbation and nocturnal emissions as criminal offenses punishable as a felony since they do not have intent or culminate in procreation.:rolleyes: They are already doing their best to eliminate contraception altogether. The craziness is crazier almost daily.
     
  4. Ent

    Ent Josiah Trusted Advisor Thread Starter

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    Incorrect. See the openning of the thread.

    On what grounds?

    And why should I care? I'm not in the USA. I also happen to think the whole 2 party or 1 dimensional spectrum of parties is inherently broken on the basis that given 2 issues complex and controversial enough, the idea that one party would get the perfect right answer to both and the other the wrong answer to both is untenable. Multiply across by all the issues they squabble over...

    Last time I checked, being willing to hold a line purely to protect someone else was considered a virtue rather than a vice.

    Double score! a slippery slope and a straw man in one statement.
     
  5. Wino

    Wino

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    Incorrect. Bible has no meaning to me.


    Truth.


    I don't care whether you care or not.


    Depends on what/when you consider somethng someone. You draw your lines, I'll draw mine, and neither the twain shall meet.


    You forgot to add IMHO.
     
  6. valis

    valis Moderator

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    actually, pretty sure that one would fall under sarcasm and/or cynicism..........:)
     
  7. buffoon

    buffoon

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    Naturally..................
    ...........as shown by YOUR above perspective. Clearly, as shown, not shared by everyone.
    Well, I'll leave that one up to nittiley.

    Nevertheless it seems that abortion is (normally) legal in Britain up to the 24th week of pregnancy, attached stipulations notwithstanding, and the US, last I heard, holds similar time stamps with state interests and those of the (non) mother to be balanced. Sybillinic ?:rolleyes:

    I in fact know of no country where abortion y/n is exclusively the affair of the pregnant.
    if, if, if.

    If my granny woulda had wings, I'd have started an airline.:D
    Goes for all of us.
    false dilemma for one, can probably add plurium interrogationum andpetitio principii :p
    That's speaking logic as it's "generally" understood (valid description, generally arrived at).

    There is currently no universally accepted notion of logic, the idea strives for that and no conclusion reached.
     
  8. nittiley

    nittiley Banned

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    why can't you apply biblical principles inside your home, church, & community? why the insistence on applying them outside of that realm?

    in spite of occasional snarky comments, i do feel most religious people mean well & they're not intentionally trying to cause problems. yet when those problems are highlighted, it seems as if most humans of religious persuasion throw up their bibles & profess because it's in their good book it must be correct.


    i responded endlessly to this.. what are you lacking here? i explained that yes, the fetus' life is being terminated in an abortion. i've given my own personal opinions (i.e. would not abort 3rd trimester, yet do not feel my preferences should be applied to all women in all situations).

    also how the topic remains under the realm of women's rights because it is her body/uterus/fetus -- even if that fetus is genetically distinct.
    save for any additional humans affected by the situation (father, current children, et al.) the choice remains the woman's.

    i loathe to mention this because it's gender biased, but it's often said among women that if men could become pregnant, there would never be a discussion of whether abortion was allowed (meaning it would always be permissible).


    absolutely nothing to do with, say a zygote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zygote

    which is under the umbrella of abortion.


    & if you apply any of these to the peripheral factors surrounding abortion, they do not negate the presence of such factors & their impact on abortion.
     
  9. nittiley

    nittiley Banned

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    http://www.now.org/issues/abortion/roe30/beforeafter.html

    jumping around from one of your previous posts..the above are stats regarding deaths due to when abortion was illegal before roe vs. wade, the law that made abortion legal in the states.

    do you shirk your obligation to the children already born who need to be fed, housed, & loved when considering abortion laws? when you add extra children to over burgeoned numbers, then what? how will that affect the quality of those other childrens’ lives? don’t their lives get any consideration..only the fetus matters & not these other little ones?

    bringing more children in a world where:

    in the u.k.:



    these children need to be taken care of before more arrive. more children , less resources.. then what? increasing the population when the current amount of children aren’t getting basic needs met is creating another problem.

    these aren't red herrings.. these are facts. children that need to be considered when one decides every fetus must go full term & be born.

    i will try to get to the rest of that prev. post & either edit here or put a new one..


    ------------
    remainder:



    i looked at the survey. based on ~1,200 respondents, so it’s valid, yet it’s only a single survey.

    are you saying: murder is always wrong/sinful, or murder is always wrong/sinful when it involves abortion? i would assume you mean the latter..

    i do not believe abortion is always wrong (nor always ‘right’ ). it is the female’s prerogative to decide about fetal existence before that fetus exits the uterus. at that juncture, you & i disagree, no? you feel it’s murder in utero & that it should be illegal on the grounds that it’s immoral/sinful.

    what you consider immoral (& in other situations what society deems illegal) doesn’t necessarily translate to something being inherently wrong.

    yes, suicide is an area similar to abortion. in some areas (my p.o.v.) it should be allowed & is the only just & humane approach; i’m referencing the terminally ill here.

    yes, incorrectly.
    once again.. uterus & fetus are attached via an umbilical cord, therefore it is a part of the female anatomy. if you start at the beginning of conception, the zygote attaches to the uterine wall. uterine lining attached to uterus, which is attached to human female. until the baby is delivered & the umbilical cord is severed, it is a part of the female’s reproductive organs.

    yes, well aware of that prior, & it doesn't change anything.

    because the fetus is in utero.. therefore it falls under the jurisdiction of the woman. would you like me to tell you how you can manage your reproductive parts & any form of life emanating from them? should i dictate what you do with your sperm? of course not. i could argue that sperm is the precursor of life, & will become a medically distinct human eventually -- and perhaps that it should be sent to a lab to ensure there won’t be any genetic defects being unleashed into society. however, some of us would not invade your personal realm in that manner.. & i suggest you do the same for women.

    i feel unwanted, unintended pregnancies are a tragedy, & it would be best if those situations never occurred. however, they do & they will continue to, which is why abortion should not be made illegal. too many additional, negative consequences come from making that procedure illegal, which i’ve already explained in detail.

    covered this earlier re. child poverty, over population, sustainability of the planet.

    on primacy of child-bearer grounds.

    i really don’t think we cleared out the issue of animal death. you eat meat, you’re murdering an animal. one poor, innocent animal who just had the misfortune of be available for slaughter for you to consume.

    so you’ve murdered an innocent life when you’re doing that, have you not? likely you see nothing wrong with it (you’re hungry). i agree it isn’t immoral to kill that animal in order to sustain yourself.

    however, we have a certain stage of human life, & suddenly now it becomes immoral to murder it. i assume simply because you consider human life superior to animal life, no? the animal may feel differently, but they can’t speak english, as you know. so they’re innocent & mute to us.

    yes, i feel it’s a women’s decision & right whether or not to murder her fetus. i would hope any parts of the aborted fetus would be used to better those already in society (stem cell research). some good can be produced from a tragic situation..

    therein lies the problem.. you don’t know what is going on in “most situations.”

    what is TCK?

    i see it as depressing that expressing your humanity is considered sinful or sad. certain religions in the states used to ban dancing on the grounds that is was sinful.
    dancing..

    do you believe your god put you on earth to solely to suffer & anything aside from that, especially if it's pleasurable, is sinful?

    i believe your use of the word ‘inconvenient’ doesn’t even begin to cover the scope of the situation, which i why i won’t answer it. it’s an incomplete question..

    complex situations produce complex questions.. simple would be convenient, but not a true reflection of what abortion entails. even though you wish for something simple, you will not find it in this & many other issues..
     
  10. buffoon

    buffoon

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    If men were ever to become pregnant, we wouldn't go on about it (take) for three quarters of a year. :p

    :D
     
  11. nittiley

    nittiley Banned

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    no, it would take you at least 2 years! :p

    ps) 1 buffoon is all this planet requires!! if it ever required 1 in the first place.. :D
     
  12. valis

    valis Moderator

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    hah!!!!!

    quote of the year, and it's only April..........:D
     
  13. buffoon

    buffoon

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    No way. Being ready for watching football (both American and European) alone, would preclude that.
    I carry my name with pride.:p
     
  14. buffoon

    buffoon

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    Bah.....just getting bitter with envy:p:D
     
  15. nittiley

    nittiley Banned

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    soccer football & american football, i assume. :)

    you can watch telly while pregnant.. try again :p
     
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