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Bush to Challenge Univ. of Mich. on Race

Discussion in 'Random Discussion' started by Toddles18, Jan 15, 2003.

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Should Race be an issue?

  1. Yes

    2 vote(s)
    10.5%
  2. No

    17 vote(s)
    89.5%
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  1. Toddles18

    Toddles18 Thread Starter

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    WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush, stepping into the most politically charged affirmative action case in a generation, asserted Wednesday that a program of racial preferences for minority applicants at the University of Michigan was "divisive, unfair and impossible to square with the Constitution."

    Democrats and civil rights leaders swiftly attacked Bush's position in a Supreme Court case that could overturn a 1978 affirmative action ruling and jeopardize 25 years of race-based programs.

    "The Bush administration continues a disturbing pattern of using the rhetoric of diversity as a substitute for real progress on a civil right agenda," said Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., a candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination.

    Sensitive to such criticism, the White House said a brief being filed Thursday on Bush's behalf is narrowly tailored to oppose the Michigan program and does not address a critical question: whether race can play a role at all in selecting a student body. Bush chose to let the Supreme Court settle an issue that could reshape affirmative action programs nationwide.


    The court hears the case in March.

    Some conservatives, including senior members of Bush's own Justice Department, had urged Bush to take a tougher stand against ever using race. In an unusual foray into domestic policy, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice participated in the discussions and eventually sided with Bush's split-the-difference approach.

    Rice, who is black, opposed quotas as provost of Stanford University.

    "I strongly support diversity of all kinds, including racial diversity in higher education," Bush said in the Roosevelt Room to announce that his administration would file a brief. "But the method used by the University of Michigan to achieve this important goal is fundamentally flawed."

    The Michigan program "amounts to a quota system that unfairly rewards or penalizes prospective students solely on their race," Bush said.


    (AP) President Bush makes remarks during a news conference Wednesday, Jan. 15, 2003, in the Roosevelt...
    Full Image

    He said the undergraduate admissions program awards black, Hispanic and native American students 20 points, one-fifth of the total normally needed for admission. At the law school, some minority students are admitted to meet percentage targets while others with higher grades are passed over, Bush said.

    "Quota systems that use race to include or exclude people from higher education and the opportunities it offers are divisive, unfair and impossible to square with the Constitution," Bush said.

    The last Supreme Court case that addressed affirmative action in college admissions banned the outright use of racial quotas but still allowed university admissions officers to use race as a factor. The case, the 1978 Bakke ruling, involved a white applicant rejected from a public medical school in California.

    Bush said that "racial prejudice is a reality in our country" and Americans should not be satisfied with the current numbers of minorities on college campus. But in trying to fix the problem, Bush said, "we must not use means that create another wrong."

    As an option to quotas and preferences, Bush pointed to admissions programs in other states - including his home state of Texas - that promote diversity without giving students an edge based solely on their race.


    (AP) President Bush makes remarks during a news conference Wednesday, Jan. 15, 2003, in the Roosevelt...
    Full Image

    In Texas, as governor, Bush proposed that students graduating in the top 10 percent of all high schools be eligible for admission to state schools. Supporters say that had the effect of continuing a stream of minority students because some public high schools are nearly all black or Hispanic.

    State figures show Texas colleges have enrolled more minorities under Bush's program, but not at a pace to keep up with national trends, state goals or the booming population growth.

    Bush has called the program "race neutral" because no quotas or racial preferences were involved. But senior White House officials, seeking to cast Bush's approach as moderate, said race was at least an indirect factor in the Texas program because diversity was the primary goal of the program.

    "Our government must work to make college more affordable for students who come from economically disadvantaged backgrounds and because we're committed to racial justice, we must make sure that America's public schools offer a quality education to every child from every background," Bush said.

    The volatile issue forced the president to balance the desires of his conservative backers, who staunchly oppose affirmative action, against the potential reaction from the broader electorate if he is viewed as being racially insensitive.


    (AP) President Bush makes remarks during a news conference Wednesday, Jan. 15, 2003, in the Roosevelt...
    Full Image

    Rep. Dick Gephardt of Missouri, a graduate of the University of Michigan Law School who intends to seek the Democratic presidential nomination in 2004, said he would file a brief in support of the university's program.

    "I believe affirmative action is an essential tool in expanding educational opportunities to minorities," he said.

    Noting that Bush announced his decision on the birthday of civil rights hero Martin Luther King, civil rights activist Jesse Jackson said, "He is intentionally flaming racial fears for wedge politics."

    Bush got into Yale University in part because the school gives credit to the sons of alumni, Jackson said, comparing that advantage to the University of Michigan point system denounced by Bush.

    Bush's own White House has looked to race as a factor in hiring. Clay Johnson, the president's personal director, told the Washington Post in March 2001 that racial and ethnic diversity are a consideration in making White House appointments.

    Complicating the president's decision was the fallout from former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott's remarks that seemed to hold nostalgia for the days when segregation was accepted in parts of the nation. Bush condemned the comments last month, and the Republican Party has been trying to attract more minority voters.

    In a sign of the White House's sensitivity to the issue, press secretary Ari Fleischer spoke of Bush's support of diversity while also discussing the president's plans to commemorate King's birthday, increase aid to Africa and funnel more money to black colleges.
     
  2. ComputerFix

    ComputerFix

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    Yes, the U of M needs to change its program. I recall this from several years ago, when two of my employees applied to U of M. I thought they had already changed it, guess not.

    Quite simply.....no, IMHO
     
  3. Toddles18

    Toddles18 Thread Starter

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    I guess the length of the article is causing a lot of people to just skim it and not vote. 19 views 3 votes right now. I have another question to ask to, but will wait for a few more votes and post's before I ask it.
     
  4. moonifa

    moonifa

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    It's really a shame that our society seems to go from one extreme to another.
    Personally, I have seen instances where whites were discriminated against because of the over-zealousness in not discriminating against blacks or other minorities.
    Why not leave race out entirely, and judge on someone's hard work and abilities?
    Some of us talk a good game about not being racist, yet turn right around and in an effort to be "politically correct" end up discriminating, all the while trying to prove we aren't discriminating. Did that make sense? LOL!
    Our society is much too sensitive and walks around on egg-shells when it comes to hiring practices and admittance of college students.
    I personally have applied for jobs where I was denied because I was not black or hispanic and they had a quota to fill.
    White cop shoots a black person and they are immediately labeled as racist! Never mind the facts of what really happened.
    True, there have been many real instances of unfair treatment. But just as much by blacks as by whites. Your skin color does not make you immune from treating others unfairly.
    Personally I am sick of the tetter-tottering and we all need to concentrate on treating our fellow man fairly and honestly. Whether he is black or white or any other race.
    Well that's my soap box for the day! LOL! Now I have to go get ready for our winter storm that hits today. Love to all and may your day bring you a new treasure! Moonifa
     
  5. ComputerFix

    ComputerFix

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    I noticed that there is now a "yes" vote.

    Would that person like to say why race should be an issue? (keep the posts from being one sided)
     
  6. GreenIs

    GreenIs

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    I have a question. What about that all black university in the USA? Wouldn't that be considered the extreme of being openly racist to whites?

    As much as we'd all like to be "politically correct" or non judgemental...as far as I am concerned, if the "minorities" are still willing to live in the past and bring up what is trying to be eradicated - being racism -, then they too should drop the "I hate white issue and the world owes me something." I'll say it. I voted yes. I voted yes because I see more discrimination to-wards whites these days then anything. example: it's ok to have a whole movie that's about jokes to-wards white people, but it's not ok to do the same about blacks/or any-other colour you'd like to chose.

    I for one have lived in Zimbabwe. You want to know what racism is...live there. White farmers whose lands have been in their families for generations long before even some blacks lived there. Those white farmers now live either in fear of being murdered, or they leave. My family left... we had too.

    LOL ok I think I may have taken this thread on a new ride, but what the heck. I've at least lived to know to speak about it.
     
  7. eggplant43

    eggplant43 A True Heart and Soul - Gone But Never Forgotten

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    Joe Conason's Journal
    The president opposes affirmative action. So how does he defend the institutional favoritism that got him into Yale? Plus: More on bad "legacies."

    - - - - - - - - - - - -




    Jan. 16, 2003 | Remedial reading for the rich and lazy
    Among the many email comments on Bush and affirmative action were two revealing dispatches from academia. The first came from a woman whose husband has worked for more than two decades in student services at a university. She asked not to be identified further:

    "Anyone familiar with a modern university…knows that it is not a 'meritocracy' and there is preferential treatment all the time. It is not just the 'legacy' admissions like George W. It is also the athletes--who get all sorts of academic support…But one group that receives incredible special treatment (not just admission) seems to be under the radar. My husband works for a university that has a huge 'LD' program that essentially allows rich white students to buy special treatment in college. By getting a doctor's diagnosis as 'learning disabled' and paying for 'enhanced LD services,' parents of these students get tutors, extra testing time, assistance on tests, etc. It is a virtual 'profit center; for the cash-strapped university, and many of these students are not so much 'learning disabled' as they are rich, lazy and dumb! "Some of these people have to have their exams read to them because they can't read; others can't write; they get four hours instead of two to complete an exam, etc. There is a huge amount of staff time and energy [spent] just getting these kids through college. But none of it shows up on the transcript--it's all confidential! When you see these kids pull up for services and jump out of the $40,000 SUV that daddy bought them, its hard not to get a bit irritated….[This] is happening at universities all over the country.…The program needs to be exposed, but too many people are afraid to speak up for fear of being accused of discriminating against the disabled. But the reality is that the key criterion for receiving these services is ability to pay…."

    Remedial education is, of course, a major complaint of affirmative action's critics. If remedial ed for legacies gets dressed up as "services to the disabled," however, that's just fine
     
  8. Toddles18

    Toddles18 Thread Starter

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    Ok, I said I had another question. It is obvious that so far the majority opinion is that race should not be an issue. So I pose this question. Should race be an issue when hiring someone new at a job? Bear in mind I have no false Idea's about a social mobility of the poor in America
     
  9. Wino

    Wino

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    GreenIS,

    I have followed the Rhodesian situation for the last 25 yrs. after meeting a family (4 generations) from there while I was living in the Philippines. They have lost everything - farm/land/home/country - weren't even allowed to remove their money from the country to start anew. Have always wondered (particularly in recent times) where the world outrage is regarding the cruelty towards whites. Was a sad day when Ian Smith stepped down from GB and USA pressure, yet today they do nothing. I can't even fathom what it would be like to be forced from my homeland.

    BTW, voted no - have never accepted AA. Always believed that hard work, diligence, personal determination and pulling up your own boot straps works best.
     
  10. brinkly97

    brinkly97 Guest

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    A no vote... with a cautionary thought. Acknowledging that university acceptance and job offers should[not be granted
    solely on the basis of ones "minority status", forces us to accept that denials of such appointments should not be based on that same criteria. Are we ready for that? www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/01/14/name.bias.ap/index.html
     
  11. THoey

    THoey

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    Sorry, started a new thread on this. I do not agree with it, but I also do not agree with the bashing Bush is getting due to his stance against it...

    Here is what I wrote in the other thread:

    Just curious what everyone else feels about this. It seems to me that Bush is getting unfairly slammed for making statements against something that is inherently wrong. Quick background on the situation is that if you apply to the University of Michigan, you are required to fill out an entrance survey. To be accepted, you must score at least 150 points. If you are African-American, Native-American, or Hipanic-American, you automatically start with 20 points. If not, you start with zero. This just seems unfair.

    Just so that no one thinks I am racially inclined, a bit about myself. I am an American first and foremost, but I am considered an Anglo-American. My fiance is Korean, but has recently received her American Citizenship, so I consider her an American. My best friends are African-American, Hispanic-American and Anglo, but I just consider them Americans too. I grew up a military brat and was surrounded by all nationalities. So while I then saw that my friends and neighbors were different colored than me, it meant no more than having different eye color or hair color.

    Now, I am not so blind to think that there is not discrimination. And I think it should be dealt with fairly and justly. But, a school policy like this one seems to be reverse discrimination. Why should Bush be seen as the bad guy for this...

    Articles of Note thread
    http://forums.techguy.org/showthrea...1917#post691917

    CNN News Story
    http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS...tion/index.html
     
  12. ComputerFix

    ComputerFix

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    No, and I will give an example.....

    Here in Tucson (as with many cities), one has to take an exam when applying to the police department. To progress any further thru the application process, a specified minimum score must be obtained.

    All applicants start at zero points before the test except for two groups, Native Americans and military veterans. These two groups are actually allowed to score LOWER on the test itself, as they are given points for being one or the other (so before they answer a single question, they already have a score).

    Here is where I see the problem....

    Being Native American does not substitute for the basic knowledge that is required to pass the test. Being a military veteran does not either.

    I see no factual basis to support that being Native American would make an individual a better police officer. I could see an arguement that being former military (and all the instilled disipline that would require) could be an advantage, but in my opinion, that should be taken into account as a "human factor" during the interview, just as any other previous job and job skills would. It should not lower the expected performance on the exam.

    I see the same for education in college. College's should be looking for people who want to receive that advanced education, and who will take it seriously enough to warrant the "space" they would take. Ethnic composition will not determine this, and therefore should not even be remotely considered.
     
  13. Toddles18

    Toddles18 Thread Starter

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    I'll take it one step farther ComputerFix. You gave the example of a police officer. What scares me is these same practices are applied in medicine as well. Does it matter to me if my doctor or surgeon is a minority. Heck no, does it matter if s/he got it simply because s/he was a minority. Heck yes!!
     
  14. Mulderator

    Mulderator

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    I think that's the boggest gripe of minorities that don't support AA. They feel as though people look at them and think, "You got where you are solely because you are a minority."
     
  15. cadaver queen

    cadaver queen

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    If the Administration decides..( he is not in this all by himself ..people) then it is hypocritical to condone other "incentitive" programs such as "legacy admissions"..

    I will have a lot more respect for the Administration , if both programs are dealt with in tandem then just deciding on a matter of race ..


    Greenie..,

    We have black colleges, women's colleges , Christian Colleges , and a plethora of others..but they usually fall under the "minority "classification.

    It all comes down to a matter of funding and following Federal guidelines..There are private organizations in the US that follow a strict all white , all male congregation.. It is allowed because they do not accept gov't, foundation or state funds only private donations and are on privately owned property...

    Everyone,


    Define Black ... I know of at least 4 ( "Black Schools" that accept an Afro American heritage going back to great grandparents..

    I also know that U. of Missi is actively recruiting white students of a C average for a full ride at their institution so would you call this racial situtation..??? When you have kids who are black who earned 4.0 getting turned down for these scholarships???


    The world is not equal ...All children do NOT have the same needed educational oppertunities that others are given freely.. So why aren't we fighting for that first rather than waiting until these Kids hit College???? It would negate this argument and give this country what it needs.. a strong workforce to carry the baby boomers on our economic backs..:)
     
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