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Clarity Of Vision

Discussion in 'Random Discussion' started by JewisHeritage, Dec 15, 2001.

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  1. Mafud

    Mafud

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    171
    ___________________________________________
    Thanks for doing my spell checking because it does not seem to work with my mail. But you make the point: I did not need spell checking because you understood my point. Beside, it was late.

    What I heard in response to my first and other post was people like yourself, blaming Muslims for what has happended to them. While I might agree with some of your facts, at least for the sake of discussion, you typically want to talk about the whole affair on your terms, not from a point where an understanding might be reached.
    Europeans are like bad teachers: you screw up, fail to educate your charges, them blame the students. You are also like all bullies. You don't even recognize what you have done, and continue to do-to the rest of the world.
    Since the so-called "industrial revolution", Europeans have exploited the entire Earth, as you are doing now.

    I don't make excuses for the lands you named. But then, you use the wrong tool to measure or judge them. What you don't realize is most people on this Earth are not "industrialized" and don't desire to be. A Muslim nation made up mainly of peasants, farmers and shepards doesn't have the needs of say a Jordan, who has given their souls over to captalism.

    Would you want to know what would have happened in Afghanistan had the British way back then and us today, had stayed out? Afghanistan probably would still be the lovely little "Switzerland of the near-east" it was before whites forced the issue. Probably wouldn't have an army or militia. Maybe a few tribal militias to skirmish with Pakistani Muslims but not this, this quamire we face today. But no: land-in we sold some twenty years ago are nonw maiming American GIs-ain't that a kick in the teeth?

    You seem to want to measure every nation by western industrial standards. Sorry, even in China where western thoughts and goods are making a great inroads, we have yet to penetrate the interior because interior China has no need for the Internet or Palm Pilots or whatever GE or DELL produces. They want most to be left alone, by this and their own govenments. Just like the people in Afghanistan: get out and stay out.
    But no, the "West" (Europeans) insist that what is good for them is good for all and even if you don't need or want it now you'll want or need it later.
    ___________________________
    Bin-laden certainly does not represent Islam any more than Billy Graham represents Christianity. It is wrong, dead wrong for you and others to harp on Bin-Laden as if his insane acts against Israel and the United States represent how we 6 million Muslims in America feel.
    You would forget how Israel itself began, right? But in the writing of Israeli 'terrorism" we find they have evolved into European heroes instead of the ubiqutous "terrorists" they actually were. Or does the King David Hotel escape your recollection?

    My point before and now is Europeans do not want to take responsibility for their own continuing political and social actions which interfere with other nations or hurt their people, preferring as you did, to lash out, attempting to censure me, as if I, or the truths I told, would go away.
    __________________________________________
    I"m amused when you or others ask for facts, when the only facts you'll accept are those accounts written by European writers you already accept.
    So for me to propose you read something outside the purview of hidebound European academia, including the United States, would find you being as derisive with my suggestions and their own intellectual cache. You have been disdainful here as many Europeans are with anyone who holds different views of what is transpiring in the world.
    For example, you might read:
    "The African Origins of Greek Philosophy."
    Falling off your chair, rolling on the floor laughing? You make my point.
    Start your thinking here: the nation-states which eventualy went on to comprise what we know as "Greece", were, as late as 700 BCE, illiterate Balaknized near-civilizations without a written language. But we must suspen reality and believe the proposition that these intellectual midgets, in less than 300 years, formulated, developed and spread among other sciences, philosophy & medicine.
    Your task then, if you care pursue the challenge, is to discern just how these total barbarians could achieve all that in a little over 300 years?
    Hint: Alexander The Great.


    And no one, including yourself, answered or even addressed my direct question about the discoveries at Toledo, Spain after the Crusades and what the discovery means to the world today? I leave your search of accepted and well-known resources to get the answer.

    While some have felt it best to attack my statements, or damn with faint praise as you have, the real daming silence fell over this forum with my first and now second question.
    I would hope someone actually tries to find out the answers, and tells the forum otherwise, I'll just read other TSG forums because you guys only want to make little insipid jokes or attack someone.

    Not for me.
     
  2. JewisHeritage

    JewisHeritage Thread Starter

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2001
    Messages:
    2,469
    Mafud....You have decided to take a position in this "open discussion" that is anything but open! The article I posted was a "point of view" .... The article Columbo posted was a "point of view" .... They both "opened doors" that could be explored as to perhaps shed a new light or perspective by us "Whites" as to why the Muslim World is so enraged with the American Industrialized World! You have "slammed the door closed in our faces" by saying....
    So be it Mafud!

    Now I shall begin to treat you in the same manner you treat Eggplant, Columbo & myself!

    Tell me about how the Taliban teach their children from the age that they can first walk & speak the writings of the Koran ... from the viewpoint of hatred & how it is noble to kill innocent people and that they will be rewarded for this .... That their surviving familiy members are treated like royalty with gifts bestowed upon them because their sons were taught it is a good thing to blow themselves up in a crowd of innocent women & children or fly jets into skyscrapers .... Tell me how it is right to teach these children to beat "puppets" of westerners with baseball bats to shreds.....
    And you tell me that Europeans are bad teachers & screw up and that we fail to educate our charges! Should I continue? We in the American Civilized World don't treat Females as ANIMALS ... Whipping them in the streets, denying them of education & medical attention.....WE don't recognize what WE have done???
    Oh, I forgot.....
    There are NO excuses Mafud .... and the tools in that article are very VALID judges of peoples Human Development ... even people who want to live in a world as it existed 5,000 years ago ... but perhaps that is my "WHITE" flaw .... I like running water, sanitation, medicine, eduaction, equality of the sexes ... If the Muslim nations don't want it .... don't buy it ... they sure as heck seem to love Western Military Weapons .... They seemed to love Music & CD Players when the Taliban got their [email protected]@es out of there Mafud .... So what gives with this line of garbage that you are trying to feed me??

    The peasants ARE PEASANTS because the DICTATORS that ENSLAVE them make them PEASANTS! They have no desire to be peasants! I will back my words with better proof than a link to an article or a discussion of History, which in my judgement, is 100% irrevelant TODAY....WE LIVE IN THE HERE & NOW .... Sure, History is fascinating, but it will change NOTHING of the events going down TODAY!

    When I was last in Israel, I spent a week in Sharm Al Shek, camping with 3 other people (all Israeli) on the banks Red Sea. We were 10 miles from civilization. The Israeli Military came past twice a day on their patrol in a jeep. Other than them & us ... the only other people around were some Bedouin Tribes. Let me tell you about these Arabs. They reside in the desert with their goat & sheep. Early every morning the WOMAN, took the goat & sheep out to graze while the MEN stayed in the shade of their tents smoking Hashish & playing some sort of a variation of backgammon. We would trade bottles of Coke A Cola with them for Fresh Pita Bread they baked .... There was little spoken between us .... The first night we turned on our Tape Deck ... Well, let me tell you Mafud ... these people were at our camp site so fast you wouldn't believe it .... They kept saying "Musica" & smiling & dancing & wanting to listen to more ... MY POINT? Don't you dare tell me about their WANTS & NEEDS! YOU, who have been born & raised in the Good Ole US Of A! You know nothing of what you speak except for what you read in textbooks!

    Next Error! ...
    Do read any Current Event Magazines?? China's government has placed some sort of "BLOCKING DEVICE" on the internet in China, so that the people of China can only access those sites that the government allows them to. WHY? Because the government is scared sh1t that the general public will see what the "WHITE" world has ... & they too will want these "freedoms" ..... they can't allow this! And Mafud...it has nothing to do with wanting to be left alone, my misguided friend!

    It is obvious that you didn't bother to read Columbo's last Link Post! You would not have posted that if you had! So please spare me the...
    That is just laziness on your behalf!

    First Off....I already stated my position on History & its effect on Current Events. Second, how dare you tell me what my task is! You are the one "crying foul" here! You are the one that says, "Why should I even bother post a link for you to back or prove what I say is true!" .... And now you tell me I should do YOUR HOMEWORK!!!

    Final Point Mafud....
    This is very easy Mafud ... Show us where we attacked your statements BEFORE THIS REPLY! We were open to you ... but you came with "Much Baggage" that you wanted to dump ... never opening an ear to what we were saying! WE ARE STILL WILLING TO LISTEN & DISCUSS Mafud.....but it must be a two way street!

    Hoping you have a change of heart & return to continue .... Without Earnest Negotiation No Progress Will Me Made Mafud....
    If it can't happen here .... How in the world is it going to happen anywhere???:confused:
     
  3. Mafud

    Mafud

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    171
    I don't know how to "quote" on this board so I can accurately respond. I'm so used to cut and paste but this board has its own system. I surely don't have the time or desire to learn or use HTML so how?
    Easy shortcuts anyone?
     
  4. LadyLisa

    LadyLisa

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2000
    Messages:
    1,995
    Mafud

    after you click on 'Reply' you will see a little button that say's 'quote', just click on that and copy/paste your quote into that.
     
  5. JewisHeritage

    JewisHeritage Thread Starter

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2001
    Messages:
    2,469
    Mafud...Highlight the text you want to quote....then click on the "quote" button on the second row, far right, on the vB Code Line....You can add the words, As Quoted by XXXX then Right Click to paste in the quote window that opened...
    Let me know if you need more help!

    Geoffrey
     
  6. JewisHeritage

    JewisHeritage Thread Starter

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    2,469
    Mafud??? Was that Quote Button .... "Not for me.":(
     
  7. eggplant43

    eggplant43 A True Heart and Soul - Gone But Never Forgotten

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2001
    Messages:
    17,198
    I do not have time right now to respond to your last long post. I just want to say that I hope you will stick around, and help us to understand your point of view. We are very forthright here, but we are not hateful, and I promise I will listen, and think about what you have to offer.

    I am encouraged by your asking for help in posting quotes, and we will be glad to help this be a comfortable experience for you in any way that we can.

    We all have an opportunity to reach understanding, and even acceptance here if we all persevere. If not us, then who?
     
  8. eggplant43

    eggplant43 A True Heart and Soul - Gone But Never Forgotten

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    17,198
    From Salon:

    A former Christian fundamentalist recalls a life of ferocious, intractable faith -- and the moments it began to crumble.

    - - - - - - - - - - - -
    By Carolyn S. Briggs

    Dec. 21, 2001 | This morning I drive to work thinking about the lipstick on my front tooth that I can't fix until I exit the freeway, my college freshmen students who will not be prepared for class and firemen, my new heroes. I turn on NPR. An interview.

    A scholar explains how difficult it is for a religious fundamentalist to function with the concept of multiple identities. While most of us are comfortable defining ourselves in several different roles, a fundamentalist cannot. She is called to forsake anything that challenges her mission as a single-minded follower of God. Even good things can distract her from the narrow road. Once the image of "zealot" has been forged, the radical will cling to that self-definition and disregard anything but her mission of serving God with her whole heart, soul and strength.

    Can the zealot be a city councilman, a lover of literature, an expert at chess or backgammon? Unlikely. These pursuits have the potential to hinder the believer from becoming a sold-out follower of God. The Old Testament God who consumed his servants' sacrifices in a blinding flash of fire is not a God content to be a suburban pursuit, a scheduled event on a crowded calendar. The zealot capitulates in the face of this demand and is rewarded with sure answers secreted in inerrant scriptures and promises of eternal security. In a chaotic world, the clarity of seeing oneself simply and irrefutably as a child of God is immeasurably comforting. No need to quibble about what is important and what is not -- God is important and everything else is not.

    I know this to be true. The interviewee on the radio is describing my former incarnation, a religious fundamentalist who would have died defending her faith. Remembering how I spent my youth clinging to a sole identity makes me cry, there on Interstate 235 on my way to teach paragraph development to sleepy and hung-over youngsters.

    I was born in Iowa in the middle of the 20th century. My parents dropped me off on Sunday mornings at a small Baptist church with red carpet where I was taught to turn my back on the world, to retreat, hug my truth to myself and pray for the doomed on the outside. It was clearly a case of "us" and "them." We were the sanctified, the born-again, the elect of God. The others were lost. The others didn't have a clue. My seventh-grade Sunday school teacher warned the knobby-kneed bunch of us 12-year-old girls that the unsaved would trip us up, bring us flat and destroy our faith. We were to be watchful. Yes, she told us, tell the unbelievers about Christ, but don't become friends. For the love of Jesus, don't let the unbelievers influence you to compromise or turn away from the one true God.

    My exposure to fundamentalism germinated below the surface throughout my adolescence and finally took root when I turned 18. I was a child bride, pregnant and unhappy when I turned to the Sunday school Jesus for my only likely salvation. I surrendered everything -- my will, my thought processes, my questions -- in return for him coming in and straightening the place up. I began to measure everything against the Holy Scriptures and the one true God and his son Jesus Christ. I plotted each event in my life in the grid of God. I saw the hand of God in everything, and I mean everything. Parking spots at a crowded mall were a gift of God. My daughter's earaches were a test from God. The Del Monte vegetables on sale at the market were a sign of God's provision. I called myself his handmaiden and I began each entry in my prayer journal with a plea to be "used by God." What rich pleasure it was to know the Creator of the Universe was inhabiting me, using me as his mouthpiece. I asked God to speak through me and then I believed each word that left my mouth was his word.

    I would not have killed anyone in the name of God, but beyond that important distinction between me and some fundamentalist extremists, I see very little difference. I feared and suspected those who believed in a God who was not my God. I knew I had the answer of the universe. I knew I was right about the path to God. And for years, I didn't doubt it, not for a minute. I didn't waver in the face of others who embraced another religion as fiercely as I. They were mistaken. They had been deceived by their own desires, their prejudice, their allegiance to the Father of Lies, Satan himself.

    I believed God to be merciful and loving, but that knowledge paled in my understanding of God as a strict and merciless judge of sin. When the Bible said the beginning of wisdom was the fear of God, I took that seriously. God was not going to take my sin lightly -- not a God who sacrificed his own son for my sin. I kept a tight rein on my actions for two decades of my life. I could not lose my temper, tell a lie, speed even one mile over the speed limit. If I were leafing through a magazine and saw an astrology column, I slammed it shut for fear that I would read even a word of such pagan and occultist prose.

    I was filled with anxiety much of the time because, while I could control my actions, I could not control my thoughts. And sometimes the thoughts in my head, my modest and bowed head, were evil. I wanted attention. I was proud. I was jealous. I could hide these emotions from the other believers, but I could not hide them from God and it made me very, very afraid. I resented the flash and dazzle of the world, the temptations always there before me.

    For a long time, God's approval meant everything to me. He was my meat and drink. I wanted Him to love me and I longed to prove my love to Him. I often thought about heaven. I daydreamed about walking with Him on a green, celestial hillside, His eyes on me. There were no flames of judgment, no fury over sin, only love for me, a holy and fierce love for me, His disciple, the one who denied herself the pleasures of this world out of adoration of Him. I knew He would reward me and I could not wait to see His face.

    The fundamentalist is intractable. Can you convince her to compromise in any of the tenets she holds sacred? You cannot. Even in the most benign case, she will see you as a contaminant. Your values and your ideas are not worthy of her consideration because they are wrong. The fundamentalist does not need to understand you and has no desire to try: You are of your father, the devil, the deceiver, the one who is the enemy of her soul. You are not redeemable as far as the fundamentalist is concerned. Your fate is sealed. You, in fact, are dead already.

    That is why it's not such a leap for these fundamentalist extremists from another part of the world to see others as nonentities. As far as they are concerned, those outside the true faith might as well be dead. Unbelievers have missed out on the only real thing on planet Earth, the only opportunity for redemption and a ticket to paradise. Through their own choice and because of their own rebellion, they have sealed their fate. Even a loving God must allow humans to exercise free will and take the path they choose.

    I understand the fundamentalist. Even now, I know what my former brethren think when they look at me and listen to my denial of all things holy. I know how I would have reacted to someone like me, a believer who has fallen away. I am the one the Scripture says has returned like a dog to his vomit, a newly cleansed pig who has gone back to the mud and mire of the world to wallow in it. I am now an apostate, but how did it happen? Why did I set down the cross I had once so eagerly shouldered?

    I was 18 when I embraced fundamentalist Christianity as the only truth. I had the untapped zeal of youth, ready to attach to any worthwhile cause. I was young and in love, in love with God much more than I was with my husband. I believed everything I read in the Bible, accepted everything other believers told me about God, and stopped any analytical or reflective thoughts in their tracks. I gulped dogma and opened my mouth for more. I felt so safe, so secure, so infinitely sure of who I was and what my future held. I dressed modestly and evangelized every chance I had. "The church," I told strangers, "is the bride of Christ. And he's coming back any day now to claim us."

    But he didn't show, and that was just the beginning of the disappointments I would tally through the next 20 years. Unanswered prayer, tragedies that could not be properly explained, events that made my loving God look cruel and heartless. Leaders in my church who were lecherous beneath the surface, a glance across a church pew that stripped me of clothes. I read Christian publications that were militant and ignorant, calling women to keep their hair long and their heads covered out of respect to their men and to wear long skirts, no slacks, ever. An elder in our church paddled my infant for not lying still during a diaper change. He left bruises on her legs. A couple got divorced and we all whispered our disdain. One morning I sat with Bible on my lap and found my mind wandering. I tried to make myself read, to learn, to be cleansed, but I was thinking of going to the library instead. My prayers grew perfunctory. I sang the hymns on Sunday morning less enthusiastically. I began to listen to our talk at our church suppers. We, the whole lot of us, were arrogant, smug and intolerant for any way of life but our own.

    Finally I slipped my hand from God's. We had been walking hand in hand for a long time, but one day I just let go. I saw his back in front of me, and some part of me said to hurry, catch him before he's completely out of sight, but I did not. I just watched him until he disappeared. God had become a demanding husband, an aloof one. He was a hot and cold lover who would withdraw without explanation. No matter how much I strove to please him, it was obvious of how far I had to go, how frustratingly unattainable my goal of holiness. My love for him faded, and with that love went my submission, my unquestioning acceptance of everything I was taught. I looked at other believers and marveled that they continued to persevere. They were cheerful in the face of disaster, assuring everyone else that God would bring something good out of their brain tumors, lost jobs, missing children.

    Extricating myself from the church was the most difficult thing I have ever done. I didn't know how I could admit to anyone that I had stopped believing in the word of God. My children bowed their heads in prayer at the dinner table and asked me questions about the devil and God and who was stronger and I realized that I had raised them to be followers of something that wasn't real. When I read the Bible, I saw contradictions and a bloody religion that had arisen from myth. My husband became an elder in the church and I went to college. He went to prayer meetings and I went to poetry readings. One year into graduate school, I knew what I had to do. I was terrified to make it official, to pull out, to deny, to be a Judas, but I had to. I left it all behind: my marriage, God and the simple answers catalogued and filed inside my head.

    During the next few years, I went to Europe several times. Always, I felt compelled to visit the cathedrals. I lit candles but said no prayers. It was so cold in those churches. I was always glad to leave and feel the sun on my face, to see the world clearly and not through stained glass
     
  9. eggplant43

    eggplant43 A True Heart and Soul - Gone But Never Forgotten

    Joined:
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    17,198
    From the New Statesman:


    The ignorance of the Islamophobes





    Maureen Freely Monday 17th December 2001




    Muslim Turkey has the highest proportion of tenured women professors in the world. You didn't know? There's much more you need to learn, writes Maureen Freely

    Even in the nicest circles, I have encountered a hardening of prejudices against things Islamic in recent months. The worst offenders are often people who would never dream of uttering an anti-Islamic word in public. The new orientalism is a private luxury that comes out with the brandy and cigars.

    It begins with a languid question about "these people" and "who they think they are". Is it possible, it is sometimes asked, to see Islamic fundamentalism as a sort of mental illness? If so, what causes it? Is the key to the pathology to be found in early childhood? Or is it to be found in Islam, a religion they know to be inimical to critical thought? It's such a shame, it is remarked. It got off to such a promising start, but what has the Arab world achieved since discovering zero and building the Alhambra?

    Postprandial orientalisms are rhetorical devices, on a par with "Wasn't the pudding delicious?" or "Isn't the weather just too dreadful?". When I ruin the fun by taking them seriously, the first response is always a widening of the eyes, and then a search of my features for some hint of an Arab grandmother. But I have no biological excuse.



    My anger stems from childhood, which I spent in Istanbul, Beirut and many other parts of the eastern Mediterranean. It also owes something to my western education, in which the golden rule, or so I thought, was to study your subject before drawing any conclusions.

    So that's where I begin with my closet Islamophobes. How much do they know? If they say it is a shame that the Islamic world never managed to separate religion from politics, can they name the countries for which this blanket statement is a nonsense?

    If they say Islam is a religion that offers nothing to women, is this a conclusion they reached after a thorough reading of the Koran, or did they decide that it was enough to conduct in-depth interviews with women in Turkey, Bosnia, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Indonesia and Pakistan? If Islamic culture oppresses all women, how to explain Benazir Bhutto? What if I told them that Turkey has the highest proportion of tenured women professors in the world? No matter what I ask, I always get the same response. How can I, a feminist, have a kind word to say about people who drape their women in acres of blue cloth and subject them to public beatings?

    If I point out that they are talking about Islam as practised by the Taliban, not Islam as it is practised in different ways in other countries, they are soon waving their hands to let me know they've heard enough. They make no distinction between Islamist states and secular states with Islamic populations, between political Islam and Islam the faith. If you so much as suggest that "Muslim lands" have a rich cultural heritage, the stock response is: "Then why don't I know about it?"

    There's no winning these arguments, not even with the ones who admit at the very end of the evening that they do know a thing or two about Persian art or Ottoman architecture. They still insist that, on the whole, "their" culture doesn't match up. It's like arguing with a mortar and pestle. It doesn't matter what you say. Their overriding urge is still to throw all of Islamic history and culture into a bowl and pound it into a paste.

    The desire to look east and sigh has a long history. It needs no introduction, thanks to Edward Said, whose famous polemic, Orientalism, may have made little impression on your common or garden Islamophobe, but was a book that the intelligentsia took to heart. Orientalism became a thing to monitor and avoid as assiduously as all other forms of racism.

    But in my view, this has largely been an editing exercise. The prejudices stay on the cutting-room floor. No one wants to remember the bloopers that might have identified you as a western supremacist. There is no incentive to take a renewed interest in the people you've misread.

    And that's the problem. The only time the western media notice "these people" is when they are angry. The only time the media are genuinely concerned is when this anger might damage western interests, when there are oilfields or airfields or pipelines that are in danger of falling into the "wrong hands". Since 11 September, there have been any number of erudite essays and worthy documentaries explaining where this anger comes from. There are, after all, quite a few people who have lived in Asia, Northern Africa and the Middle East who feel the same way I do about the new Islamophobia, and who have jumped at any chance to set people straight. But you can't get very far if the only thing your readers want to know is why "these people" are angry. The only feasible starting point is to go back to the beginning, and ask who "these people" think they are.



    Who they think they are, I mean. This is a question I could ask a thousand times a day for the rest of my life and still never know the full answer. Any generalisation I make here is at best an approximation of some people in some countries and a misrepresentation of millions of others. So I'll limit myself to three.

    First, it is dangerous to generalise about Islamic doctrine, as there is no agreed body of doctrine in Islam. There is, however, a huge body of interpretation. This leads in turn to a great deal of variation in religious practice. Take, for example, the Alevis, who form a large minority in Turkey. They believe in equality of the sexes and education for all. They do not pray to Mecca and their women do not cover their heads. To make sense of their theology, you have to know their history. The same holds true for the fundamentalist sects we've been hearing so much about - and all the groups between the two extremes. Over the past century, the degree of religious observance has also varied widely. Secularisation and westernisation have led to a weakening of Islamic influence in some places and classes, just as it has led to a religious revival in others. In Turkey, which became a secular republic three-quarters of a century ago, the urbanised westernised middle classes observe religion in much the same way many Britons do - going to church at Christmas and Easter.

    Second, the attitude to the west throughout the Islamic world is complex. It tends to be most negative in the countries where westernisation has been imposed by US-supported despots or a corrupt business class, where it is clear that these agents of change are lining their pockets with western money and letting little trickle down to the rest of the population. When there is concern about the erosion of traditional culture, it is, again, very much along the same lines that people here talk about the erosion of our culture by Hollywood, corporate culture or globalisation. Except that in the "east", the erosion is happening faster and the contradictions between tradition and modernity are starker.

    In spite of all this, there is a widespread respect for western education, science and technology - not just among moderates, but in some radical Islamic circles, too. Even the twin towers suicide hijackers were not closed to all western ideas. Like so many fundamentalists, they were recruited to the cause while studying in western or westernised universities. They were, in effect, half westernised. It is possible to understand their conversion as a response to the problem that all rapidly westernising Muslims experience: the difficulty of knowing who you are and what you believe in when you are travelling between two cultures and serving two gods.

    The third and most important point I'd like to make to Islamophobes everywhere is that fundamentalism is only one response to this moral dilemma. Even among groups promoting political Islam, there are fierce disagreements about education, the law, commerce, technology and the place of women.

    This clash of viewpoints, in addition to causing all the political and human tragedies you already know about, has opened up a new era of innovation. Throughout the Islamic world, there are men and women who draw upon both eastern and western thought and tradition, who live and work in both worlds and travel easily between them, and who are quietly transforming the fields in which they work. Why don't we hear more about them? Why do we put Bin Laden in the middle, and push this remarkable generation of writers, thinkers, musicians, artists, architects, educators, environmentalists, feminists, historians, human rights activists and entrepreneurs to the margins? We have so much to learn from them, not just as ignorant observers of the so-called east, but as so-called westerners. It's time we started listening to what they say.
     
  10. Kirkland

    Kirkland

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    399
    Try that word/study as a means to understand the functional and organic psychosis' of minds deluded by their own, self-induced narcotic:
    see: Islamophobia; Eurocentrism; racism.
     
  11. JewisHeritage

    JewisHeritage Thread Starter

    Joined:
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    Bruce: Hope you had a Happy Holiday! I enjoyed reading both articles you posted! I found the second to be more direct & of my interests.

    I am a bit out of sorts tonight & will speak freely from the above quotes! Let them wave their hands! Why don't I know about it? Perhaps I do know about it but I don't feel it worthy of spending my time dwelling on it!

    These people are angry? So am I! So are many other people from many other places in the world! Who do these people think they are??? That's a good question! The Afro Americans were Slaves...The Jews suffered the Holocaust...The Africans are dying of AIDS....I could go on & on .... BUT THESE PEOPLE.....JUST WHO THE HEL! do they think they are? The whole world should bend for them because they sit on the worlds oil fields? If the Americans were not goverened by BIG REPUBLICAN BUSINESS & start using alternative means of ENERGY in this country .... we could tell THESE PEOPLE to take their oil & shove it up their [email protected]@!
    I am sick & tired of hearing about how America DESERVED the events of 911 .... and today a new bin laden video placing blame on Americas support of Israel again.... It is just the revolution of a continuing cycle .... Blame it on America .... Blame it on the Jews .... Blame it on the Capitalists ..... You know something ..... Blame It On YOURSELF YOU PEOPLE .... You want EVERYTHING the WEST has .... BUT you don't want TO WORK FOR IT .... You want US TO BE FLUENT IN YOUR RELIGION & BELIEFS.....I have no time in my life NOR interest! ..... ALL OF US HERE AT TECH GUY work hard for a living to pay our bills & support our families .... So stop trying to shove your way of life & your beliefs down our throats!
    You think suicide bombers are the answer to attract our attention? You HAVE OUR ATTENTION NOW! DEAL WITH IT!!!

    I have heard so many arguments about, "Let's go back in History & look at the origins of the Middle East" ... Folks, that is not going to change one thing of the current events going down today!

    Are there holes in what I just wrote? A few million holes I would say! But the media is just piss*ng me off these days! Why not show 30 minutes of Ground Zero EVERYDAY? .... Put the anger back into the American People just like it was after Pearl Harbor .... Then you will see just how many Americans care to learn about "Why these people are angry at us" & "Just who the hel! these people think they are!"
     
  12. JewisHeritage

    JewisHeritage Thread Starter

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2001
    Messages:
    2,469
    Kirkland:

    Kirk.....I think my above post answers what I think of your post!
    Too Little .... Too Late Kirk ..... Wrong Thread .....& All Wrong As Usual Kirk!

    One doesn't just "dump" & exit .... with leaving before the facts can be sorted & discussed .... But you & Mafud did just that!

    So please "Spare me your [email protected]"!
     
  13. JewisHeritage

    JewisHeritage Thread Starter

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2001
    Messages:
    2,469
    Mafud boldy & recklessly, without any facts or research said ...
    Kirkland added his useless two cents with this...
    You can BOTH ponder over this ...

    KHAZARS

    ...you will find other links within that one!

    Want more proof????

    Try studying "Human Genetics" ....
    Does DNA Lie????


    ==============================================

    Now what other bullsh1t do you two want to throw my way so that I can "rip it into pieces" & divulge you two for the "empty propaganda frauds" that you are?
     
  14. Mulderator

    Mulderator

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 1999
    Messages:
    51,022
    JH--how does it feel to have to deal with emotionaly charged rhertoric for once? :)

    Usually its me, and mole, and others who have to endure every point we make being construed as though its racially motivated. You know Democrats get a lot of mileage off the evil white man rhetoric politically and I think the arguments you address (and your excellent rebuttal) very pointedly illustrates why I get frustrated with it all--most of the time its factless, baseless, groundless rhetoric employed to distort the real issues at hand. Read Crumb's signature line--I think that about says it all!!!
     
  15. JewisHeritage

    JewisHeritage Thread Starter

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2001
    Messages:
    2,469
    Mulder: It will be a New Year shortly ..... Watch for a New JH;)

    ps: It doesn't feel that great .... but sometimes "their" are those signature lines that can show "one" the light!:)
     
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