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Did Jesus Exist as the son of God

Discussion in 'Controversial Topics' started by rexgrant, Jul 14, 2017.

  1. Johnny-be-Good


    Nov 6, 2016
    First Name:
    Having been in many evolution vs creation debates, I've found it a waste of time.
    Deniers of evolution are just that, deniers of reality.

    Fossils of Earth's biosphere clearly show development over time. That is called 'evolution'.
    There is a theory about evolution, actually The Theory of Evolution, that tries to explain the event. The two are often confused.

    No matter how much the theory is denied through it's faults, evidence of an evolutionary event exists in the fossil records. :)

    But evolution doesn't deny God. Only atheists deny God.
  2. oitconz


    Feb 21, 2018
    You and I have both heard a lot of bollocks talked on both sides of the fence. There are true believing adherents on both sides who make a lot of really stupid claims.

    I do believe in a literal Adam and Eve. The rest of the Bible is so reliable in my experience that to discard two beginning chapters is not consistent.

    Having said that - I also have a scientific bent. There are questions I have about all sorts of things but the reality is I will not find out answers to those on this side of eternity or possibly the other. The more I learn of God the more I realise there is stuff that is so far above my pay grade or stuff I need a life time to consider before making sense of it - that I am happy to live in the tension of not knowing. That's not faith, its just an acknowledgement that i am not omniscient.

    My lack of knowledge - agnostic reality - is there is also a lot of scientific stuff i don't know. There is a lot of theories out there that don;t make sense. There is enough stuff on the evolutionary side to give me pause for thought as it doesn't stack up. I might be wrong about evolution, I might be right about creation, I might be wrong and there is a third option. I would be happy to be an evolutionist who said God started it all - except I cant wrap my head around evolution.

    Stephen Hawking is famously noted as saying he doesn't believe in God, and he also doesn't believe in evolution as it is too improbable to have happened by accident. I too struggle with the improbability of evolution. It doesn't make sense. In fact IMHO it makes more sense to believe in a powerful being I cant see / touch or punch who created stuff than to believe in random evolution. That puts me closer to the folks who believe in men from space seeding planets than an evolutionist point of view - except I believe in God.

    Evolution as a theory is seriously flawed. Genetic tree of life is destroying Darwins Morphological Tree of life yet a lot of die hards still stick to Darwinistic tree of life. There is a lot of folks who were die hard evolutionists who are moving towards genetic tree of life while still claiming evolution disproves God - yet their foundation has shifted and they still claim to be right - even though their original premises were wrong.
    Like i said a lot of BS and bollocks on both sides. Don't get me started on some of the rubbish spouted as proving intelligent creationism. Some of it is shockingly badly thought out.

    The only way evolution could work is as random chance, being as improbable as it is, is if there were unlimited realities and each decision split off another strand or probability. Problem is you have to double the energy in the universe every split and that works out as impossible very quickly. If it were possible then we would have one instance of successful evolution - and a failure of evolution an infinite times more than successes. Unlikely.
  3. oitconz


    Feb 21, 2018
    THe other side would say there is evidence of a flood in the fossil evidence. and a flood trumps slow decay and sedimentation. Fossil evidence is very very subjective and morpphological tree of life is gettig munted by genetic research. Seems you and I have more in common with a kangaroo than an ape if memory serves. go figure.
  4. Brigham


    Aug 24, 2010
    Going back to the thread title, I think Jesus may have existed, but not as the son of god, because I don't believe in god.
    Wino likes this.
  5. Johnny-be-Good


    Nov 6, 2016
    First Name:
    A religious belief is a choice with out evidence.
    You and everyone else can and have the right to believe what you choose.
    However, it is exactly that, A belief. Not established Fact. A fact is indisputable.

    However, since this is a discussion, what you or any member post can be challenged.

    Now you post in the literal belief of 'Adam and Eve' after giving consideration to allegory.
    You believe it as fact and use it as such.
    But there is no evidence to back up that belief. Lack of evidence is not evidence in and of itself. Basic logic. So it's not a fact, it remains a belief.
    However, evidence does exist of mankind existing prior to the Biblical timeline of Adam and Eve. Physical evidence. Not claims written and repeated over centuries.

    That is a problem many seem to face.
    Many are faced with the dilemma of retaining their beliefs when faced with an element that challenges the claim the Bible is the inerrant word of God.
    That concept demands everything written in the Bible is correct, and yet in the Christian realm there are many denominations claiming their interpretation and foundation of their variation is the 'Truth'.
    Can't be all of them.
    But, imho, The Bible read as a historical document has immense value and allows the reader to form a belief rather than being bullied into a belief.

    IMO, It depends on what you believe 'creation' to be.
    Young Earth Creationists treat God as a magician. Presto-snap, everything seen now was created in place as is. For them, denial of reality is a must in order to maintain their beliefs.
    One little chink in their fragile logic, and they seem to think their entire belief system is lost to them.
    Then there are the Old Earth Creationists. I can only guess they are hedging their bets :D

    And there is the seldom talked about but inadvertently considered by many, Theistic Evolution.

    I favor the latter.

    Bringing notables into a conversation for support doesn't impress me.
    Hawking is also famous for claiming the Earth ends in fire in several hundred years.
    I'm aware of global warming, but not enough to use Hawking as an authoritative source on our future ;)
    Astrophysics he knows and is famous for, the rest is his opinion.

    What you are trying to say is that your scientific background isn't good enough to make an educated evaluation.
    Fair enough.
    As far as it goes. But logically, that wouldn't include denial. To make that denial, you're going to need to address it from a scientific pov. And denying several billion years of fossil history is going to be quite a task. Unless you are a YEC (Young Earth Creationist) and claim presto-snap.

    As I mentioned earlier, there is the event of evolution and there is the Theory of Evolution.
    The first is a reality of an event spanning several billion years and the latter is an attempt to explain the mechanism of the event.
    Notice the 'theory' is not labeled a 'law'?
    As science progresses and new information is evaluated, corrections are made to the theory.
    Mankind's ignorance on what ever the 'Law of Evolution' is, does not negate the FACT that the event of evolution occurred and is still an ongoing process.

    You are posting nonsense.
    Simply, evolution is life's way of surviving in a changing environment.

    Darwin gets credit for being the first to observe and formulate a reason for what he observed.
    That was in the 1800's.
    Do you or anyone else seriously expect scientific discovery to end with his observations and claims?
    Of course more is known today and still, what is unknown or in conflict does not negate the event.

    You've been seriously indoctrinated to ignore the obvious.

    I suggest you consider reading up on the extinction of life. There are more distinct life forms extinct than there are distinct life forms living today. And it's said in many scientific journals the Earth is currently experiencing a 'great extinction' event, largely from the activities of modern man.

    The fossil records are packed with examples of what used to exist.
    And what used to exist, participated in evolution for what you see today, to exist.

    Do I care what you believe?
    Not really.
    But for those that demand acceptance of their beliefs, I care a lot about the damage they do to a society.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018 at 10:09 AM
  6. Johnny-be-Good


    Nov 6, 2016
    First Name:
    You need to read up on some college level geology text books.

    Floods cause both rapid erosion and follow up with rapid sedimentation.

    To a young earth creationist, obviously. Completely an issue of non scientific opinion.
    To a paleontologist, they are evidence to be examined in a scientific manner.

    So what?
    How does that deny what fossils represent?

    Assuming you mean 'muted'...again, so what?
    One of the goals of science is to continually hold open the ability to challenge accepted findings.
    That brings about correction to understanding relationships, in a logical manner.
    So again, how does better understanding the process of evolution deny the reality of the event?

    Maybe, if you happen to be a marsupial. :D
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