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How to build this network design ??

Discussion in 'Networking' started by bokeron, Aug 14, 2010.

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  1. bokeron

    bokeron Thread Starter

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    Hello.
    I'm a network illiterate trying to create a home network with a design like the one in the image. And when I say Home I mean also cheap. Cisco might be the perfect solution for network connectivity and world peace, but I can't afford it.

    [​IMG]

    A, B : RouterB is connected to DSL. Both have wifi enabled and are connected to each other by Ethernet.
    #1, #2 : Two PCs, #1 connects via wifi and #2 uses Ethernet. #1 can only use DHCP.
    #3, #4 : Two PCs, #4 connects via wifi and #3 uses Ethernet.

    My main problem is that the Green group must work always.
    Group B can go offline at any given time, but #1 must reliably send data to #2 ALWAYS. I can do that just running this Green group isolated from the Red one ... but that means without internet.
    The problem comes when I try to make the Green group have internet access : If I have to disable DHCP in routerA to let RouterB manage that and be able to get internet connection ... and the routerB goes suddenly offline ... then #1 and #2 can't connect, and I can't let that happen.
    So ... the way I see it, both groups have to work as independent networks except that Green group must acquire internet connection via RouterB somehow. It would be nice if #1, #2, #3 and #4 could share data, but I'm willing to sacrifice that in order to get a reliable #1 to #2 connection.

    Well, thats all. That's my question : how do I make it work ?
     
  2. zx10guy

    zx10guy Trusted Advisor Spam Fighter

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    Having a Cisco router isn't going to help solve your current situation. Why not just move the DSL connection to Router A and then configure your network accordingly?
     
  3. bokeron

    bokeron Thread Starter

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    Hi :)

    Because I can't buy a new house just to achieve network nirvana. :)

    Or, in other words, there are two distinct places (green/red "rooms") and what it happens there can only happen there and nowhere else ... because of restrictions of space and connections ... the DSL line can only reach the "red zone".
    That part is set in stone, I'm afraid. I can't do anything about it and have to work around those limitations.
     
  4. zx10guy

    zx10guy Trusted Advisor Spam Fighter

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    To meet your requirements, you have to have the DSL connection on the other router. I assume you own your house. The only alternative for you which is do able is to have a new phone line pulled over to the other room. It's not convenient but it's not impossible either. If you can't do it, you can hire someone to do it for what I consider not much money.
     
  5. bokeron

    bokeron Thread Starter

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    Hi, zx10guy, thanks again for answering.

    So, if the DSL has to stay in the "red room" ... is it absolutely and phisically impossible to make it work ?

    I don't know if I explained this properly but ... I don't mind if I lose internet in the green part when the red zone router is off ... is it really impossible to connect 2 networks like that ? I'm ... flabbergasted ...
     
  6. zx10guy

    zx10guy Trusted Advisor Spam Fighter

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    Waiving the internet requirement solves a lot of your problem.

    But to recap, are you connecting the two routers via the LAN ports on each one? What are the subnet(s) you are using on your network?
     
  7. bokeron

    bokeron Thread Starter

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    Yes, they're connected via LAN ports.

    Regarding subnets ... that's one of the many things I don't know how to set up to make it work. I don't know if I should assign them 192.168.0.1 and 192.168.0.2, or maybe the second one 192.168.1.1 ... I tried both methods but didn't worked (I say i tried both methods ... but I can't be sure if I set everything correctly ... )

    I don't know how to do it, because what I've tried didn't worked. I'm a newbie when it comes to networking ... I simply don't know how to set the whole thing up, I just know what my constraints and my needs are.


    Let me review my theory to see if I can explain myself better ... a computer asking for an IP sends a request that any computer or router can see ... so, if both my routers can answer that call because DHCP is enabled, the requesting pc will choose whatever it fancies at that moment ... is that right ?

    So ... maybe I'd need to be able to make the router A manage DHCP requests coming from the green zone PCs only ... and the router B manage the red zone. And then, the router B would need to provide some "tunnel" to let the traffic directed to the internet coming from the router A pass through.

    This would isolate both zones from each other, I suppose ... I don't really know ... but if that's the only way, so be it.

    Hope I'm making sense. I do try to. :)


    P.S. My design is just that, my design, the only idea I could come up with to solve my problem using what I already have. Maybe I did it wrong and there's a proper way to do it. That's what I want to know, how to join that 2 zones while the green one remains semi-independent.
     
  8. JohnWill

    JohnWill Retired Moderator

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    I fail to see why you can't just connect the secondary router as a WAP and be done with it. The statement that the green room "has to work all the time" confuses me, if you lose Internet connectivity, what exactly "has to work"?

    You can assign static IP addresses here, and configure one of the computers in the green room to default as the master browser. That will keep them networked together no matter what happens to the router. Obviously, if the device connecting them together dies, they won't "work".

    You need to be a lot clear on what "working" is defined as.
     
  9. PedroHin

    PedroHin

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    It sounds to me like you are getting an IP subnet conflict. You must either have each router on it's own subnet (IE: "A" is on 192.168.0.0/24 , and "B" is on 192.168.1.0/2) -- this is how mine is set up. all PCs attached to either router can get to the internet always.

    I have this exact setup at home:
    All PCs on "A" can see each other, they can also attach to any PC on "B" if I know the IP address.
    All PCs on "B" can see each other, but cannot see PCs on "A" -- this is due to the natural firewalling feature of a router. I could set up a DMZ for one of the PCs in "A" if I wanted to see it from "B"


    An alternate setup would be to first set up "B" for (let's say) 192.168.2.1/24, have it do DHCP and everything normal.

    Now, diconnect router "A" from "B" for a while, and statically set it to use a WAN IP of 192.168.2.200 (subnet 255.255.255.0 / Gateway 192.168.2.1). While in "A" disable DHCP settings. Leave the wireless settings as they are.

    Now connect one of the LAN ports of "A" (1,2,3 or 4) to a LAN port of "B" (1,2,3, or 4). Connect nothing to the WAN port of "A"

    Now router "A" and the cable going to "B" are just acting as a bridge. All PCs on both routers should be on the same 'cloud'
     
  10. bokeron

    bokeron Thread Starter

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    OK, I thought treating this abstractly would be easier but it looks is not. I'll explain the whole situation.

    The green zone is a photography studio. The wireless PC is actually an Eye-Fi card and the wired one is my workstation. The Eye-Fi allows me to shoot and every picture gets downloaded to my workstation via wireless router. The trick is ... the Eye-fi card can only connect using DHCP. It can't use static IPs.

    The red zone is ... the rest of the building. My home, an office ... it has internet access via a DSL modem/router.

    Why can't I simply mix both networks ? Because the home/office is populated by wild beasts that disconnect things and reset routers randomly. Kids, in other words.

    So I need to keep it apart because if "someone" disconnectes the DSL modem/router in the "red zone", in the studio I'll lose internet connection but not the Eye-Fi <-> workstation ... and that's what has to work always. I don't mind losing onternet for a while, but the studio network MUST remain functional.

    And I can't place de DSL router/modem at the studio, so it has to remain at the "red zone"


    So ... I hope this clarifies my motivations.

    My "network design" is just what my poor understandong of networking has allowed me to imagine to solve my problem.


    Also ... I would like to ask that, if/when possible, would you please keep the technical level just a bit lower ... just so I can understand how to separate/join networks, set up routes, etc. PedroHin answer has very interesting info ... but I need to digest it before I can ask back :) I'm learning as fast as I can, but I'm not there yet.
     
  11. JohnWill

    JohnWill Retired Moderator

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    Actually, if he simply configures the secondary router as a WAP, he can have them all on one subnet and have networking functional between all of them.

    Let's not complicate things more than necessary.
     
  12. PedroHin

    PedroHin

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    John, you may not have seen bokeron's post http://forums.techguy.org/7547500-post10.html as you submitted yours, so we now know that setting router "A" as wap won't work. Neither will my suggestion of creating one cloud.

    I think the best thing to do at this point is to keep it simple.

    Find out what address range the "B" router hands out for its LAN. If it is 192.168.1.0, then connect configure the "A" router's LAN for 192.168.2.0, and conect the WAN port of the "A" router to the LAN port of the "B" router. This is the simplest and most straightforward. It allows network "A" to function if "B" goes offline.
     
  13. JohnWill

    JohnWill Retired Moderator

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    OK, the solution in this situation is to simply daisy-chain the routers.

    Connect the green room router's WAN port to one of the LAN ports on the red room's router. If the routers have the same base address, i.e. 192.168.1.x for instance, configure one of them to have a base address of 192.168.2.1.

    Both routers will have DHCP enabled, and the green room's router will basically be from the factory defaults unless you have to change the base address.

    This will totally isolate the green room from anything happening in the red room, with the exception that they can knock the Internet out. The two computers in the green room would still be communicating properly on their own network, just without Internet access.

    Does this address your concerns?
     
  14. bokeron

    bokeron Thread Starter

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    Hi again. Thanks for your patience PedroHin and JohnWill.

    Hmm ... I didn't thought about that. LAN to WAN. And ... no, I have no concert about the addresses, I can do that.

    Well ... in truth, I didn't thought about because I didn't knew about it ... and because with the parts I have right now I can't do it. I'm using what I have at hand, and that is ... 2 DSL router/modems ... so the only connectors available are 4 ethernet portas and a DSL (telephone line) one.
    I can't daisychain them, can I ?.

    So ... I can buy a neutered wifi router. But ... is there a way to do it if the only connection is from LAN to LAN ports ? (so I can save the money... that would be nice ... )


    Thanks again for your help (and your patience bearing me).
     
  15. JohnWill

    JohnWill Retired Moderator

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    OK, you need a real router to do what I suggested. I have heard that one of the phone company supplied routers in the US offered a way to use one of the Ethernet ports as a WAN port, but I think that's pretty unique. Most DSL modems do not have such an option.

    I'd look for a cheap standard router, in the US they can be had for $20 or less.
     
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