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hybrid network- wireless & HomePNA

Discussion in 'Networking' started by gentlegeek, Feb 1, 2005.

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  1. gentlegeek

    gentlegeek Thread Starter

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    (grr.. I just lost a long post I had typed...)
    I have a hybrid network- wireless 802.11g which I just added to an existing HomePNA (home phoneline) network w/ DSL access to the internet. I placed the wireless router between the DSL router and the HPNA net. I am in good shape, except the laptop on the wireless net cannot see the computers on the HPNA net, and cannot use resources there- like shared folders and shared printers. Also, the bridging computer cannot see the laptop.

    The most important thing is that I want the laptop at 192.168.010.002 to see the shared folder Sh-001 and to print to the shared printer on 192.168.020.001.

    All can access the internet, and the HPNA net can share resources like before.

    The computers on the HPNA net are all Win 2000 Pro, the laptop is Win XP Pro. The HPNA net has a workgroup name (not a domain name) of "HomeNet", and the wireless workgroup is "WireNet".

    My network layout is shown below (in lovely ASCII graphics)

    Thank you for your help. :)

    =====NETWORK LAYOUT=======
    [INTERNET Cloud]
    . |
    [ADSL MODEM]
    . |
    . |
    [ WAN Port- 123.123.123.64 ("Fake IP", actual IP assigned by DHCP at ISP)
    [WIRELESS ROUTER]
    [ |-/\-\/- <-wireless signal-> -/\-\/- [LAPTOP w/ WiFi] (192.168.010.002)
    [ LAN Port- 192.168.010.000
    . |
    . |
    . |
    [ Ethernet card (192.168.010.001)
    [HomePNA BRIDGING COMPUTER (running Proxy Server software)
    [ HomePNA card (192.168.020.000)
    . |
    . |
    _|_____|_____|__Home phone wiring
    . | |
    . |
    . |
    [ HomePNA card (192.168.020.001)
    [DESKTOP COMPUTER* (w/ shared folder named Sh-001)
    [ LPT1:
    . |
    Printer (shared as "MyInkJet")

    *(note- 2 more computers have similar HomePNA configurations and IP's
     
  2. StumpedTechy

    StumpedTechy

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    Since you have a router in place have you thougt about dropping the Proxy and just setting up a standard bridge with all ports open? It could be that your proxy is only passing along the major ports I.E. port 80 and is not all open?
     
  3. gentlegeek

    gentlegeek Thread Starter

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    Hey StumpedTechy!...

    Thanks for your response....

    hmmmm... well... no I didn't really think too seriously about that... My thinking was to keep the HPNA network (which is working fine), and just change some setting or configuration parameter or whatever.

    I do believe I can "bridge" the HPNA to the wireless router - I think I can still buy a HPNA to Ethernet bridge/adapter for $80-100. But, I really don't want to spend the money if I don't have to, and also the HPNA network is working just fine.. except for not being visible from the laptop.

    Does anyone know how to do this through my network settings?? I think the key is probably in the settings on the "HomePNA BRIDGING COMPUTER" with the Ethernet card and HomePNA card.

    I'm hoping that someone else has added a wireless router to an existing network, and left their existing network mostly intact, as I have...
     
  4. StumpedTechy

    StumpedTechy

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    I would elaborate on your proxy setup. I.E. all the configuration items within that PC. I too think thats going to be your point of failure. I am sure some settings changes on that pc might take care of the problem.
     
  5. gentlegeek

    gentlegeek Thread Starter

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    StumpedTechy...
    I just read your note again... and realized that there may be more to your post than I originally realized....

    As I read it again, I believe that maybe you are suggesting that I keep my physical setup the same, and just change the the bridging computer so that it is "only bridging", and not "routing"... Well, that does sound interesting.. and probably it is easy to do, but.... I don't know how to do it... I'm gonna guess... can you please tell me if I have the right idea... and give me any other details that I need to know to make it work... what I need to do.

    My guess is that I should:
    1) deactivate the proxy software
    2) reassign the IP addresses on the HomePNA net so that all the numbers are in the same series as the numbers attached to the wireless router (like 192.168.010.001 etc.)
    3) reconfigure the HomePNA cards so that they use the wireless router as their gateway and DNS server.

    Am I on the right track?.. How do I do this?

    One other question.. or three actually...
    1) Does the router have a "name"?
    2) How does it relate to the SSID of the wireless router?
    3) Should I be able to see the router in Windows Explorer (note that I am able to ping it from the "bridging computer")?

    Thanks for your help.
     
  6. gentlegeek

    gentlegeek Thread Starter

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    gosh... I don't know where to start in trying to elaborate on the settings of this computer.

    OS - pretty standard Windows 2000 setup.

    Proxy software - ProxyPlus (www.ProxyPlus.net)... it is a very reliable proxy server... I have been running it for 3+ years now on this computer.

    HomePNA card - Linksys Phoneline 10M USB Network Adapter (which is HomePNA ver.2 compatible)

    Ethernet card on routing computer - 3Com EtherLinkXL 10/100 PCI TX NIC

    Wireless router - Belkin 54g Wireless Router (model # P56949-B)

    Wireless card on laptop - Belkin Wireless G Notebook Network Card (model #P57346)

    As you know... there are probably hundreds of settings.. and tens of "programs/services" running on each of these computers... I wouldn't know which ones to list for you.
     
  7. StumpedTechy

    StumpedTechy

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    Sorry I didn't read that your current proxy is W2K pro. Without oging to XP there is no simple solution without loading other software. I'll address some of your other questions once I get back home later tonight.
     
  8. gentlegeek

    gentlegeek Thread Starter

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    slight clarification... My "routing/bridging computer" is using W2K Pro

    .. But Windows is not the proxy software.. instead ProxyPlus is (www.proxyplus.net)

    Thanks....
     
  9. StumpedTechy

    StumpedTechy

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    Sorry for the late reply I had family business to attend to.

    Yeah I figurd out you were W2K and I hate to say this but they don't make bridging simple in W2K. I have found a couple of convoluted articles but nothing concreate as far as how to's/

    If you could possibly upgrade the W2K PC with the 2 different nic's (HomePNA and Ethernet) to Windows XP (I know professional does it I don't know about home). Its as simple as picking both network cards and right clicking and selecting bridge.

    If you do bridge then yes you will want them all on the same IP scheme and subnet and on the same workgroup/domain and they do see each other.

    The other thing though it looks to be costly is you could get a HomePNA to Eathernet hardware bridge and just remove the PC altogether (or move ot another location).

    Really in your setup a proxy is not needed as you already have the firewall setup on the router and your PC's should be sharing that router connection.

    Yes you should not have a need for a proxy behind a router.

    Yes with doing that all PC's will "see" each other.

    100% correct

    I am assuming that your HomePNA adapters show up in your networking properties just like a normal ethernet adapter so you should be able to change the TCP/IP properties on each PC. Once you have the bridge in place you can actually set all adapters to get the info VIA DHCP if you have the DHCP of the router enabled. If not then you will need to hard code each one. I would not do any of these changes until you have a working bridge.

    Usually routers don't have names persay they only have their IP address. I guess you can call yours Percy or George or whatever you want :p .

    The SSID when wireless has NOTHING to do with your physical wired network. Really its only an identifier that you are connecting to that particular network. I.E. if your SSID is Percy you will see the attaching to Percy messages when trying to connect wirelessly for the first time. mind you percy is only relating to the wireless and not to your wired network. Once your connected then your wireless talkes with the wired via the normal workgroup/domain, IP, DNS things that a wired network uses.

    Routers do not have OSes and are not going to be shown in Windows Explorer, network neighborhood, or any other internal windows app unless its a specialized network app that has been installed.

    Your able to ping it because the "bridging" computer has a nic that see's the network out.

    Think of it this way a bridge lets ALL TCP\IP traffic flow through it and a Proxy forwards certain ports to the PC's on the other side of the proxy (your HomePNA PC's).

    I don't see any easy way to do this other than upgrade your OS on the 1 PC with 2 nics OR buy a specialized piece of hardware.
     
  10. gentlegeek

    gentlegeek Thread Starter

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    Thanks for all your comments...

    I think I shall try to see if I can find some bridging software to run under Win2k... My experience has been that you can find software to do almost anything if you look hard enough.. so... I'm gonna take a look... I really don't want to spend the money for windows XP for the bridging computer if I dont have to.

    yes... the HomePNA adapters look just like an Ethernet adapter in the "Network & Dialup Connections" control panel.

    bear with me for one more question....
    Let's assume for a minute that my network was all hardwired, no wireless, and no homePNA... let's also assume that I wanted to maintain the same operating systems where they are now... finally, let's also assume that I wanted to maintain the same network layout that I have.. ie. the router has 2 computers connected directly to it, and one of those computers serves as a router/bridger for 2 other computers which are connected to it through a simple hub (OK... that's one small piece of additional hardware.. because the HomePNA configuration doesnt need a hub).. OK... with those assumptions, if I gave proper workgroup names to my two subnets, shouldn't I be able to configure things so that any computer on either subnet can see a computer on the other (and login to it if given the password)?? (I used to work in a large corp, and I can remember going to "network neighborhood" and seeing many other computers which were on the network... and I know they weren't all on the same subnet because they were in many different cities, even different continents... "it was soooo cool the first time I saw that!!!!")

    ==> Shouldn't I be able to configure my network with "high visibility" across subnets like the big companies do?

    Thanks again for helping me through this.

    PS.. FYI... I am hoping to keep my basic configuration if I can because the routing/bridging computer provides additional security/firewall capabiliites which are not on the router... specifically, I can block access to the net for the connected computers based on day of week and time of day, and also block access to certain sites if I so desire. I can also log all sites accessed.. in case I get anxious that my kids are going places they shouldn't be going.... FYI, I do not have the site blocking enabled at the moment, though I do have the logging on..
     
  11. StumpedTechy

    StumpedTechy

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    Yeah I can understand not wanting to change good luck on finding a software route I was looking for you but I was unsuccessful. I can also understand about wanting the computer to have that control. I think some of these computer programs are almost 100 times better doing packet blocking and security than whats out there as far as these basic home routers. As far as seeing other subnets the only way I know to do that would be with high dollar VLAN routers that will then "link" the subnets. Most items under a few thousand dollars won't do this. Hopefully someone else will chime in if they know of a cheaper way to do that.
     
  12. gentlegeek

    gentlegeek Thread Starter

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    HELLLLPPP!!!!!!......

    *S*

    Does anyone else have any ideas/suggestions/information to help me here??

    I have heard that Windows 2000 does have "bridging" built in, but this was from reading an "old" thread in another forum. There was no specific information on how to do it in that forum. If this is true... and I believe there's a good chance, then I just need to find the Win2k guru who knows about it... "Are you out there?"

    In another forum, someone said the Windows "Internet Connection Sharing" capability was the same as bridging... but I don't think that is quite accurate... to me.. it seems more like "a routing proxy server". And I already have a proxy server doing that.

    In another forum, I heard about an application called "WinBridge", but the link to that was more than 2 years onld, and was no longer valid. When I Googled WinBridge, I got a defunct link to WinBridge.com, and some other links, but none seemed to be that software that had been mentioned in the forum.

    I'm still looking, and hope that someone here can help....

    One other related question.... Can anyone suggest another forum which might be more successful than this one in answering this question?? Has to be a currently busy forum, with at least some focus on Windows networking... and not too technical (although I can follow most any explanation if not going too fast.. or assuming too many special technical terms...)

    Thanks to you all for reading and thinking about my problem... and thanks to StumpedTechy for his efforts to help me.
     
  13. StumpedTechy

    StumpedTechy

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    This might help found this just today -

    http://www.windowsnetworking.com/j_helmig/w2kprout.htm#w2000

    Check out the windows 2000 portion its basically a way to turn your W2K machine into a router.

    Aain like I said I have not tried this in the past. Basically your bridge then becomes a router.

    I also found this -

    http://www.serverwatch.com/tutorials/article.php/1472891

    It looks like your going to want to ensure the RRAS service is installed and working and then the registry key is changed on the first link.

    Then it looks as thought you can do a passthough.
     
  14. gentlegeek

    gentlegeek Thread Starter

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    I just looked at those pages... and they might help... but I need to read them again to see... I do know that the first one won't, because I already have the proxy software acting as a router, and that's not what I ultimately want

    I have to read them again...
     
  15. gentlegeek

    gentlegeek Thread Starter

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    I found something on Sourceforge - directly related to bridging, BUT it is focussed on Linux, and I cannot "translate"... For anyone else who may be interested, it is
    http://bridge.sourceforge.net/links.html
     
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