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The rise of post-modernism

Discussion in 'Random Discussion' started by valley, Feb 8, 2003.

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  1. valley

    valley Thread Starter

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    I'm not sure how many people are familiar with the term "Postmoderism" but I wanted to get the definition out there so that our beliefs were a bit more defined.

    Back a hundred years ago the popular mindset against Biblical christianity was Modernism....that is, people believed that only science can explain reality. Modernists believe that nothing supernatural is real so based on that idea, they say that the Bible is untrue and has no authority and that the deity of Christ is a myth so all that Christ said was untrue, nothing more than a twisting of His words....so its obvious why they have a problem with Christianity based on their presuppositions. God Himself doesnt exist in the Modernist's view. There are still people who hold to this view nowadays. Maybe you've even met a few! ;)

    Anyways, that was then, this is now...now postmodernism has taken over with a bang.

    The premise of Postmodernism is this: reality is whatever the individual imagines it to be...sound familiar? That means that they believe that absolute truth cannot possibly be known and we all make up our own "truths" in our minds in a subjective way. They believe that arguing over our beliefs is pointless because no ones system of truth (or how they arrived at it) is better than any other so ALL belief systems are equally valid. So instead of trying to find out what is truth..they spend their time trying to "understand" the other persons point of view. This is so weird to me because their "understanding" requires that they deny the possibility of knowing any truth at all. "Truth" in their eyes amounts to nothing more than a personal subjective opinion. The one unchanging rule of Postmodernism is this: No one is allowed to believe that objective truth can be known. Mostmodernists must strive for harmony and tolerance of all beliefs.

    ok..so whats so wrong with that? Well, for one thing, Postmodernism is very intolerant of any universal claims of absolute Truth. To the postmodernist, anyone (especially conservative evangelical christians such as myself) who believes that the Bible is the inspired and authoritative word of God, are seen as hostile, arrogant, unreasonable and blind.

    The thing that bothers me more than anything else is that this kind of thinking has even crossed over into our churches. So many Churches have been intimidated into softening the claims of Christ....the ONE WAY has been replaced with many ways. :(

    Now...I still say that you have the personal right to believe what you want, just as Penny said in the other thread. I do not expect you to give up your beliefs and blindly follow Christ to go against you own conscience, about all I can do is try to try to convince you of the errors that I preceive in your belief system. My beliefs are logical and rational to me (I know they arent to you, though). Personally, I believe that the Bible is the word of God and that it is objectively true for all people, whether you believe it or not. Because it is true.....the gospel of Christ is your only hope. (I know how deeply that must rankle people, especially the Postmodernist and New Agers here. :() But i'm not out to try to hurt people, but to present the truth in love and to defend the truth as I know it.

    ok....one gripe that I have: Paul, you began a thread, with a heartfelt thank you to me, knowing that I would address it...and knowing the ensuing discussion that would come. But it seems to me that it was not really me you wanting to talk to, but Mulder...who ironically, is as liberal in his religious convictions as I am conservative in mine :eek: Whats up with that? :confused: You wouldnt have an agenda now would ya? ;)
     
  2. Jonesiegirl

    Jonesiegirl Guest

    Paul ... I wish you'd reply to Val, so that I can jump in here... :)
     
  3. plschwartz

    plschwartz

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    I did by PM
     
  4. GoneForNow

    GoneForNow

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    Here we go again. Valley20 I'd be careful, you could be accused of proselytizing in this thread, IMO.

     
  5. Jonesiegirl

    Jonesiegirl Guest

    Ooohhhhh not fair! :eek: :rolleyes:
     
  6. Davey7549

    Davey7549

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    gbrumb

    Are Attorneys born with a dictionary in their hands or are the big words learned??;)

    Val
    I agree with much of what you say and I am sure you had your reasons for expressing it.

    Take care! As Dave scoots outda here!!!!!!

    Dave
     
  7. valley

    valley Thread Starter

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    thanks Dave....and yes, I had my own reasons for posting this. The thread wasnt meant to start up a whole new debate but just to clarify where I believe some important differences lay.
     
  8. valley

    valley Thread Starter

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    In your opinion????

    I thought it was a well known fact! :D:D:D

    sorry...couldnt help myself....sorry.

    *shakes finger at herself "bad girl, valley!" *
     
  9. valley

    valley Thread Starter

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    sorry Kath...we discussed it privately and suffice it to say, everything is cool. :)
     
  10. maxximilian

    maxximilian Guest

    I heard that...........................LOL :D :D
     
  11. pyritechips

    pyritechips Gone but Never Forgotten

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    Jim
    As I stated in the "Paine" thread, absolutism is not a workable philosophical theory in our modern world. Unlike religion, Philosophy, and its subdivision, Science, are self correcting, allowing for new discoveries and methodologies. No consensus on an "Absolute Truth" has ever been managed. I believe Rene' Decartes said it best with his famous "I think, therefore I am".

    To compensate for this lack of consensus, certain rules have been accepted. Such rules are logic, evidence and reproducable experimentation. To the best of my knowledge, religion has failed in all three categories. Philosophy is not obliged to disprove religion in general or the existence of any alleged "God" in particular.

    My intention in this thread is not to dethrone religion. The Emporer has no clothes. My intention is to raise Philosophy to its rightful place at the pinnacle of Human thought.
     
  12. plschwartz

    plschwartz

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    From about 1641 until the end of the 19th century, The theory of Rationalism held sway in the western world. By the end of the 19th century one physicist predected the end to physics as all the problems would be solved.
    Ah but the snark was chewing at the foudations of his pier. In order to solve some problems about radiation Boltzmann brought statisical mechanics into physics. Absolute truths disturbingly enough became only statical probabilities, albeit safe Gaussian ones. (there was a chance that all the atoms in a box could go to one side, but just at a very low probability. )
    well sniff then reality is as safe as the british pound sniff.

    Then came JJ Thomson in 1897 showed that matter was made of of smaller pieces

    well Edward, now that Mr. Thompson has shown that things are mosly empty space, I somehow just don't feel safe on the Brighton pier.

    WWI certainly put a crimp in the idea of an incresing rationality of man.
    Certainty of seeing was put to rest by bohr/heissenberg.
    But the end of the game of rationality that something could be known with certainty was Kurt (his friends called him Fritz) Goedel
    End of certainty of knowing
    Interestingly Goedel didn't exactly like the theological implications of his theory and tried to us " to prove a variation of Ansems proof" (dud)
    (interesting threds in google search Godel and God.)
    After Goedel (oe=o umlat or double dot) NO MORE CERTAINTY.

    (try http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html) Valley you can do it
    For extra credit http://www.stats.uwaterloo.ca/~cgsmall/ontology.html

    Tune in next time for :
    There ain't no Bodhi tree
    Or stand of Mirror bright
    Since all is void
    When can the dust alight
     
  13. valley

    valley Thread Starter

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    I think I can...I think I can...I think I can...NOT! :D

    an interesting read! One thing that stood out to me was this:

    "The other metaphorical analogue to Gödel's Theorem which I find provocative suggests that ultimately, we cannot understand our own mind/brains"

    I can agree with that. It is consistant with scriptural truth.

    Gödel wasnt the first one to suggest it. I wonder if he knew that the prophet Jeremiah already said as much in the scriptures. ;)
     
  14. plschwartz

    plschwartz

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    Valley good for you
    You have to back a couple of times. The basic idea isn't very hard. I think Jones and wilson are easiest.
    Having come across this: " Every day, Gödel's incompleteness theorem is invoked on the net to support some claim or other, or just to whack people over the head with it in a general way. In news, we find such invocations not only in sci.logic, sci.math, comp.ai.philosophy, sci.philosophy.tech and other such places where one might expect them, but with equal frequency in groups dealing with politics or religion, and indeed in alt.cuddle, soc.culture.malaysia, rec.music.hip-hop, and what have you. In short, whenever a bunch of people get together on the net, sooner or later somebody will invoke Gödel's incompleteness theorem."
    I figure I better shut up.
    BTW that quote you compare to Jerimiah is actually from Hofsteter I believe.

    Godel and Einstein both believed in God (The OLd ONE does not play dice with the universe E. would say.
    And:
    The one man who was, during the last years, certainly by far Einstein's best friend, and in some ways strangely resembled him most, was Kurt Gödel, the great logician. They were very different in almost every personal way - Einstein gregarious, happy, full of laughter and common sense, and Gödel extremely solemn, very serious, quite solitary, and distrustful of common sense as a means of arriving at the truth. But they shared a fundamental quality: both went directly and wholeheartedly to the questions at the very center of things.
    There is a lovely picture of these two mittle-europa gentlemen in the woods at Princeton in the google search.
     
  15. Rollin' Rog

    Rollin' Rog

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    I find nothing wrong in believing in the existence of an "absolute" truth as long as you don't claim to know what it is.

    Discussions of absolutism in religion will always remind you at some stage that, as human beings, we are fallible in our knowledge and perceptions. One may believe in God and in Absolutes, but it is folly to try to define either. Christianity and virtually every religion I have spent some time studying contains the concept of a "living" word or truth. This concept is explained differently in different religions -- but the central idea is that God's truth, while it may be rooted in unknowable absolutes, manifests itself in ways that evolve both in nature and in our understanding. From Judaic-Christian philosopy, through Islam, Hindu Vedic religion to the Tao, the absolute is unknowable.

    As in...

    He who knows (the Tâo) does not (care to) speak (about it); he who is (ever ready to) speak about it does not know it.
     
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