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Why should we police users for a valid Windows license?

3K views 37 replies 12 participants last post by  Johnny b 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Are we paid by MS ? Or have they threatened us in some way before ? Why should we police our users to have a valid Windows license?

We are here, ultimately, to save the user a few bucks and help them solve problems that they would otherwise have to pay for a solution. If we point users to pay for a license, why don't we point users to pay these tech support firms that fleece users for a few hundred dollars. Heck, we can even make a commission that way.

Ethically, we can frown hard on users that don't have an activated Windows and scold them as if they were children. But we shouldn't go as far as locking their threads and refusing help in any form If MS wants somebody to police for a valid license, let them find their own way. We are here to help ordinary people, not help big business. Our clients are the pensioners, minimum wage earners, kids in school. Big businesses don't need our help. Big businesses don't come here for help, they call their paid-for tech support. They have their own eco-system. Big firms offer specialized products, training and certifications to go along with it, and support contracts. We are outside of it all, and we shouldn't be policing for valid Windows licenses.
 
#2 ·
It's an issue of ethics and practicality.
Obviously, it's wrong to steal the usage of licensed materials.
Secondly, it brings an air of piracy to the site and changes the nature of this site's intent .
Criminality becomes acceptable and credibility diminishes with it.

Help can be offered with out an ethical issue.
The various distributions of Linux offer an acceptable/legal and free option to a licensed MS operating system.
Same with software. There is an abundance of free and legal apps in both Windows and Linux as alternatives.

The Linux forum is quite different from when I joined TSG back in the fall of 2002.
More information today, and especially more activity.
Linux distros are much friendlier now.

If we point users to pay for a license, why don't we point users to these tech support firms that fleece users for a few hundred dollars.
The reasons not to point to disreputable tech sites:
Ethics.
Credibility.
Trust.
 
#3 · (Edited by Moderator)
We could offer no help involving the actual cracking and stealing of Windows. And we still don't have to police for a valid license. Those are 2 different things. We won't be part of the actual stealing. We just don't have to care about policing for MS.

Instead of refusing to help with their problems at all and closing their thread, when we find a case of using a un-authenticated Windows, we could just paste in a lengthy sermon of why it is bad to steal, then continue to help them with their problem. That way, we aren't endorsing criminality, and still help out people in dire straits.

People are already suspicious of 'free help' and we are already at the fringe of capitalistic society. We are not motivated by money. It's altruism. So given that we are in this state, why should we help MS police Their licensesing issues? If we heavily preach 'don't steal', I think thats enough, we don't have to punish people, for MS.
 
#4 · (Edited)
We could offer no help involving the actual cracking and stealing of Windows.
The 'We' would be the TSG administration and I think it would follow that code.
But, membership is a different matter.
There have been instances where posts have been edited out with warnings of rule violations.
How would it be stopped if not 'policed'?
And then there is the issue of private messaging.
Once a culture of relaxed rules begins, little by little, it changes over time until that change is unrecognizable to the original.
Back in the early 2000's, I was also at another help site that decided to relax rules concerning the activation of Win XP.
It took about 6 to 8 months for hacks, cracks and warez to become dominant along with malware. And not just for MS products.
Membership dropped significantly.
The site closed.

We just don't have to care about policing for MS.
I agree, literally.
But, imo, we need to enforce policies at TSG for it's own future.
( edit: sentence deleted, no longer relevant after thread was moved )

If we heavily preach 'don't steal', I think thats enough, we don't have to punish people, for MS
I don't see a 'punishment' aspect to the situation.
Just a withdrawal of help.

..............

I feel sorry for the computer owner that buys a computer that was custom built or used, with
an illegal Windows install. But the only way to correct it is to purchase a license or sue the builder/seller.

I'm irked about the owner that custom builds an expensive configuration and then cheaps out with an illegal install. No sympathy there.

Another thought.....for most home computer users, the greatest expense is the Internet connection.
For many, 2 to 3 months of connectivity costs more than a legal license.
That takes more effort to steal :D

For those with financial challenges that need a modern computer, there is always the refurb route. ( imo, gaming is a 'want', not a necessity )
With a careful eye for sales, a grade A refurb can be had for less than the price of a retail Windows 10 license....and includes a legal Win 7 or 10 install. And currently those with Win 7 can be upgraded to Win 10 without charge.
( This I know because I'm posting from a refurbed grade A Lenovo M82 I5 8gb that cost just under $130 )
 
#5 · (Edited)
First of all, the Controversial Topics forum is not a place to debate the TSG rules, policies or guidelines so I've moved this thread to the Site, Help, Feedback and Annoncements forum for discussion.

So this is a quote from the pertinent section of the rules:
Because we do not support pirated software, we may request that you provide validation to confirm that your copy of Windows or other software is not pirated. If you are unable or unwilling to provide this validation, your thread may be closed.
I think that one paragraph is self-explanatory but will elaborate on it.

A few years back we were requesting more frequent validations on Windows 7 Ultimate since many of them aren't genuine but we decided to stop that practice and give users the benefit of the doubt unless something came up during the troubleshooting or malware cleaning that indicated the system may have been pirated. We also decided not to always close threads immediately but rather to offer solutions on how to make their systems genuine.
Our clients are the pensioners, minimum wage earners, kids in school.
That doesn't give them the right to steal. If you can't afford something then you do without. We're not talking about stealing a loaf of bread to feed a starving family, which still isn't right but I would have more empathy for that person.
we could just paste in a lengthy sermon of why it is bad to steal, then continue to help them with their problem. That way, we aren't endorsing criminality, and still help out people in dire straits.
In your scenario, if you met someone coming in to rob a convenience store and you lectured them on how stealing wasn't right then it would be fine to help them load the stolen goods in their truck and make a clean getaway. That is most defintiely endorsing criminality.
 
#6 ·
In your scenario, if you met someone coming in to rob a convenience store and you lectured them on how stealing wasn't right then it would be fine to help them load the stolen goods in their truck and make a clean getaway. That is most defintiely endorsing criminality.
We won't be helping them to the get away truck because we aren't helping them crack Windows authentication and such.

Let's say they are having a printer problem and they let know that his Windows isn't authenticated. Do we immediately stop helping him? My answer would be to issue a long sermon and then continue.

It is easy for us who are tech savvy to switch to Linux. But for the vast majority, they know only Windows. Asking them to install a printer driver in Linux would be next to impossible. (I don't even know how to do that) I agree with that priniciple of doing without. But I think it depends on the situation.

I don't see a 'punishment' aspect to the situation.
Just a withdrawal of help.
A withdrawal of help for an OP that is stuck in a boot loop, means he won't be using his computer any time soon. For some, it would mean abandoning his computer.

Sorry Johnny b. Just discovered your answer above Cookiegal's. I will answer later. Have to go to work.
 
#13 ·
That would be the equivalent of actually helping them rob the store. I could change my scenario to saying you hold the door open for them to go out with their hands full of stolen goods or they drop one and you pick it up and hand it to them. I could go on and on but it's aiding and abetting.
I think aiding and abetting applies to the act where they crack Windows only. Not when they are experiencing problems and look for help.
 
#9 ·
I would not use a site that helps with stolen software. It might mean there could be other illegal activity on the site such as spreading malware through attached files disguised as help files or other issues.

I do want to mention about installing printers in linux. All I do is click on install printer in settings. Nothing hard about it anymore. II don't think you really need to be tech savvy anymore to install and use linux (if you get the right distro).
 
#15 ·
Obviously, we can't help people steal software. Doing so is illegal and there have been sites threatened by legal action for doing so.

Helping someone with a problem unrelated to the fact that their software is cracked is likely not a legal issue for us, but it is a moral and ethical one. Do we want to help people who are using stolen goods? Also, it can be difficult to determine if the issue is actually unrelated to the cracked software. Is the problem due to failed updates or sketchy modified files? Who knows and who would want to spend the time to keep something running illegally and immorally.

We don't require helpers to check on licenses, but many prefer to do so. We do require that if someone is found to be using pirated software, the thread should be closed to avoid any gray areas or moral/legal dilemmas. Few volunteers want to help with those cases anyway.

Thanks for asking the question, though. I suspect you're not the only one to wonder what happened behind the scenes to form our rules over the years.
 
#16 ·
Hi Karen, I agree wholeheartedly with your post when you indicated "That you would be more empathetic toward stealing a loaf of bread to feed their family and if the person cannot afford a licensed version of windows they can do without."

In addition to your statement, I feel that a computer with any type of windows instillation is considered luxury and is not needed for survival. Therefore, I do not have any empathy toward those who steal pirated copies of windows, whereas a starving load of bread to feed one's family is needed for survival, otherwise a person would starve without it.
 
#18 ·
Hi Lunarlander
If you wrote a piece of software and people started to use it with out paying you for it's use
would you be happy for us to help them fix issues.

Please do not reply with a glib answer such as I would not charge for the software.

Also it is not so much as being a policeman for Microsoft so much as helping us to help them.
e.g I cannot get windows to update. After many post back and forth we discover it is purely because windows is not licensed.
So all the back and forth has just been a waste of time that could have been spent helping others.

By all means point out that the install is not licensed and once they get that fixed the thread could be re opened.
 
#19 ·
Hi PeterOz,

Actually I have encountered what you said. I do have software which I sell, and I have seen on forums where someone offer my software to all those who want a copy. Well, I was not pleased, but my software is security software, and my purpose of writing it is so that people don't get hacked. And it is not my full time job that I have to defend my profits with all my might. And even then, the person is helping popularize my software, and there will always be those who are willing to pay in order to experience the full licensor privilege ( minor version upgrades ).
 
#26 ·
I am posting this here because I am not sure where else to post it.

It is common for people to take old broken computers and salvage parts that can be reused in other computers. Nobody has any problem with that as long as the computers were legally obtained.

Now the question is what about any software that is found on the salvaged computers' drives? If the software is retail and the product keys can be found does anyone object to salvaged software being reused on another computer?
 
#29 ·
I believe something like an old Dell computer with OEM Windows on it would be legal. The certificate of authenticity is attached to the computer, and I'm pretty sure the windows License travels with the physical computer. I have an old Dell sitting in the back closet, and it has the fancy Windows sticker still attached.
 
#35 ·
Salvaged laptop:
Dell Inspiron 1420
Ship Date: 28 OCT 2008
O/S: Windows Vista Home Premium

Software on drive:
Windows 7 Home Premium
Microsoft Office Standard 2007

It's apparent that Windows 7 and Office 2007 was installed on this laptop after purchase.

The computer never worked so all I could do was pull the hard drive and scan it. All I know is what software was on it and their product keys. I have since reformatted the drive and used it for something else.
 
#30 ·
If it hasn't been posted, there are open source apps available for Windows and Linux platforms that work quite well.
As far as an old version of Windows, really, why bother? It's not going to be very secure when on the Internet. In the case of an old computer, a recent distro of Linux makes more sense.
 
#31 ·
Being engaged right now in an installation of Windows XP, I'll explain why to bother. Possibly the best hardware ever built for the capture and digitizing of legacy analog video was the ATI "All-In-Wonder" series of video cards. However, the upgrade from XP to Vista broke the drivers which these cards depend upon. So, if you have an interest in legacy (VHS, etc.) video and want to use an "All-In-Wonder" card, you need to keep a Windows XP PC around and working...preferably SP2. I have two, hopefully soon to be three. All air-gapped; they don't go on the network...I sneakernet the captured video to a Windows 10 or Ubuntu Studio computer using 2TB drives and hot-swap bays.
 
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