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Won't boot up in morning

2K views 38 replies 8 participants last post by  win2kpro 
#1 ·
Still trying to find the source of my Sony computer troubles.
Sony Vaio
2.4 ghz
P4 non hyperthreading
Win XP Home
1 gig memory
SATA card w/ maxtor 250 gig & Seagate 80 gig drives

I have to leave it on 24/7, otherwise, if I shut it off at night, the next morning it won't boot up.
When I turn it on, it searches for the hard drive and can't find one. After turning it off and back on several times, it finally finds it and works flawlessly.

It can be shut down for an hour or so without trouble. It only happens overnight for some reason.

I broke down finally and bought a new power supply (proprietary) for $137 and installed it last night. Turned it on this morning and it went through the same routine.

I have tried replacing the hard drive and installed a PCI SATA card.
Reinstalled the software from scratch.
Replaced memory chips.
Installed new power supply.

Anyone have any other ideas what to look for? This is driving me nuts!!!!!
 
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#8 ·
I believe you have to take a step backward and determine WHY the boot hard drive is not being recognized by BIOS. If the drive is not recognized obviously the computer can't boot from it.
 
#9 ·
I took this machine back to where it was when I received it from Sony.
It still did the same thing.

It has gotten worse though.
It started out where I had to try to restart it twice.
Now it's 4,5 or 6 times to get it to boot.

Replacing the hard drive didn't work and installing the SATA card didn't work.
It does see the SATA card and searches for the drives.
 
#11 ·
It sounds as if your HD and system are having timing issues. If I understand correctly, as your system go thru boot process, your HD is not recognized.
This could be caused by several different issues:
1) Old HD
2) Your HD gets very hot which can slightly warp plates internally. Once cold, startup is slightly delayed(which is why you need to restart several times)

I personally think it is # 2 which means you definitely should get a new HD. Save you a lot of hassles and irritation (plus the drive may be on it's way out).

BTW, you did not state what make/model drive you have so this is just supposition.

Regards,
Kevin
 
#12 ·
kamanovich said:
It sounds as if your HD and system are having timing issues. If I understand correctly, as your system go thru boot process, your HD is not recognized.
This could be caused by several different issues:
1) Old HD
2) Your HD gets very hot which can slightly warp plates internally. Once cold, startup is slightly delayed(which is why you need to restart several times)

I personally think it is # 2 which means you definitely should get a new HD. Save you a lot of hassles and irritation (plus the drive may be on it's way out).
"TIMING ISSUES"? That's quite an AMAZING analysis, kamanovich; you're claiming that a harddrive is getting hot enough to "warp plates internally"; don't you think that if the "plates" were warped AT ALL, there'd be a LOT of scraping and grinding noises when the drive starts to spin, or is this some type of TEMPORARY warping, which only happens when the drive has been running for a while? If that was actually the case, then there shouldn't be ANY problem when the drive is COLD, or am I somehow confused about the laws of thermodynamics?

Have you ever heard about the "Bernoulli effect", self-described Einstein? I'm beginning to think you haven't, which is probably unusual for a self-described Einstein. I certainly hope you're not charging anyone MONEY for your "advice", because if you are, you're ripping people off BIG time.

MP3AA:

Do yourself a favor, and don't let this guy or ANYONE spend your money for you. His "advice" has no basis in fact or reality, as you probably already suspect. Your problem is easier to solve than it is to explain (my time is limited), but I'll try to cover the most important points.

First, look through your CMOS settings for an option to boot from a SCSI device. The BIOS chip on your SATA PCI card will actually identify itself to the system CMOS as a SCSI device, for reasons too complicated to explain right now (though I'll post again later with a detailed explanation).

When you set the CMOS to boot from a SCSI device, the CMOS will find the SATA card during POST, and allow the SATA card to control the boot process. Once the SATA card has finished working with the harddrives, it will return control of the system to the VAIO CMOS, and the CMOS will continue the boot process. Using the SATA card slows the boot process somewhat, but that is the consequence of not having SATA controllers embedded in the motherboard.

You have nothing to lose by doing this, and I think you'll find out that my method is correct. Besides that, you won't have to scrap 330 GB of SATA harddrives, and you won't have to pay a dime for new drives to replace the ones with the "warped plates" kamanovich warned you about.

kamanovich said:
BTW, you did not state what make/model drive you have so this is just supposition.

Regards,
Kevin
MP3AA said:
Sony Vaio
2.4 ghz
P4 non hyperthreading
Win XP Home
1 gig memory
SATA card w/ maxtor 250 gig & Seagate 80 gig drives
Your powers of logic and observation underwhelm me, along with your computer knowledge and diagnostic abilities, self-described Einstein...
 
#14 ·
Hi, win2kpro,

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/question60.htm

"... In the article How Hard Disks Work, you can see that the read/write heads do not touch the platters in the drive. When the platters spin up, they rotate at anywhere between 3,600 rpm and 7,200 rpm.

"To the head, the platter seems to be moving at about 150 mph, and a very thin cushion of air forms between the head and the platter so that the head "flies" over the platter. If even the smallest bit of dust makes its way onto the platter, the flight is disrupted and the head "crashes" into the platter, scratching it. The crash, of course, sprays a lot more dust and debris onto the platter and then it's all over."

The important part there is this:

"...a very thin cushion of air forms between the head and the platter so that the head "flies" over the platter"

That is a good basic description of the Bernoulli effect; if it ISN'T, I'm going to strangle Professor Borst...

I spent two summers during college working with an aerodynamacist, who trained with Dr. Frank Costin, a famous aircraft and Formula 1 racecar designer. His aerodynamic research and development changed racing back in the '60s.

To be honest, I thought you'd be more interested in why the SATA card BIOS identifies itself to the CMOS as a SCSI device...

Come to think of it, you might already know the answer to that...

See you in the ether...

Sam
 
#15 ·
Thanks for all the suggestions and replies.
Someone today told me their Sony does the same thing. He also mentioned a class action lawsuit because Sony knows about a MB problem and refuses to address the issue.

The IDE cables were replaced when I installed the new Maxtor 250 gig drive and SATA card.

The SATA card is recognized while booting, drives are searched for and no boot drive is available.
After 4 or 5 attempts, they're found then this thing is rock solid.
 
#17 ·
if the plates were warped then by it`s spinning so fast it would use the Bernoulli effect to launch itself out of the HDD case. :p
 
#18 ·
MP3AA:

The problem here ISN'T whether the SATA card is recognized at bootup; the BIOS chip on the SATA card will announce itself to the world, just like the BIOS chip on the videocard does when you first turn the system on (which is a little bit of built-in advertising for the videocard maker).

You need to change the CMOS settings to look for a SCSI boot device; since you aren't using the Primary and Secondary IDE channels for the harddrives, the system has to be set to boot from some other device. Look through the boot order; find a setting that DOESN'T boot from the floppy disk, or one of the IDE ports, or any setting that mentions a SCSI device. It might be listed as "Boot from ZIP / LS-120 / SCSI device", or something else with SCSI as one of the options.

If you can't figure out which one it is, use the process of elimination; that will tell you that you don't want to select the IDE option, or the floppy drive option, and eventually, you should be able to find the SCSI / LS-120 / ZIP option (or however it is listed).

I repaired a VAIO built in 1999 just a few months ago. The owner wanted to boot from an add-in RAID PCI controller card, and I had to set the CMOS boot option to SCSI, so I know this advice applies specifically to VAIOs. In fact, I've done this MANY times, and I know this method applies to ALL PCs that are capable of booting from SCSI devices.

Anyway, if you can't tell which one to use, make a list of the boot device options and post it here. We'll all check it and tell you which one to select. If you can provide a link to the Sony website for your particular motherboard, I'll be glad to check it and get the information from there. If you can provide a link to where I can download the user's manual from, I'll read it and post the setting here, so you can see it right away.

Let's get this nailed down today; I have a tight schedule later on that will keep me away from the keyboard, and I'd rather know that we got your problem corrected today, instead of having to wait until tomorrow.

As a final thought, look through the CMOS for a setting to "Clear DMI table", or whatever Sony calls it. Clear the setting (if it exists), then reboot with the "Boot from SCSI" option enabled, and you should have everything working as expected.
 
#19 ·
As sammy speaks...warped plates would be bad. Fortunately I am referring to the fact that plates are metal and expand when subjected to heat. If the HD is hot ALL the time or quite a bit, this can cause issues when starting cold (as you seem to be having). Fortunately I am trying to help and I do have over 20 yrs experience along with working for Fortune 500 companies not just at home. :)

You seem to have tried everything and it has nnot worked. If you have a friend with an extra drive or one urself, try that! If it works (which I mean by being seen in the BIOS every time) then you'll know this is the proper direction as opposed to guesses.
Hope it helps
 
#20 ·
win2kpro said:
I was interested in your reference to the Bernoulli effect since I taught aviation ground school for 7 years and really didn't understand how it related to hard drive platters.
My best friend got his master's degree in aerodynamics; he spends as much time as he can in the air, trying to make me puke from his aerobatics. He hasn't succeeded yet...
 
#21 ·
kamanovich said:
As sammy speaks...warped plates would be bad. Fortunately I am referring to the fact that plates are metal and expand when subjected to heat. If the HD is hot ALL the time or quite a bit, this can cause issues when starting cold (as you seem to be having). Fortunately I am trying to help and I do have over 20 yrs experience along with working for Fortune 500 companies not just at home. :)

You seem to have tried everything and it has nnot worked. If you have a friend with an extra drive or one urself, try that! If it works (which I mean by being seen in the BIOS every time) then you'll know this is the proper direction as opposed to guesses.
Hope it helps
Actually, he HASN'T "tried everything"; he hasn't got the proper boot device in the CMOS selected yet. When he gets that right, the system will boot as expected, unless the SATA card or controllers are defective...

MP3AA:

For the record, which SATA controller card are you using? Is it made by Promise, SIIG, Belkin, or some other company? I'd like to know the specific model, so I can find the manual for it on the 'net. The cards the harddrive companies sell are usually made by Promise, though they sometimes have the HDD brand on them.

Which PCI slot is the SATA card plugged into? Start counting from the AGP slot. The PCI slot next to the AGP slot is PCI slot #1; I need to know which slot the SATA card is in, so we can find out if there is a resource conflict at the hardware level.

Also, look in your CMOS settings for a line that reads something like:

Plug and Play OS

The options should be YES or NO; set that to NO, so the system will assign resources to the hardware during bootup, and not allow Windows to MIS-manage the hardware at the OS level.

win2kpro:

I value your opinion here, so feel free to step in if you think I'm barking up the wrong tree... I get the feeling that your silence about this indicates that you agree with my assessment of the overall situation, and the steps MP3AA will need to take with the CMOS settings in order to get the SATA card to handle the booting chores.
 
#22 ·
This all started when the original 80 gig drive was connected directly to the IDE controller on the MB.
The 250 gig Maxtor I bought was to do 2 things;
1. Replace the small drive
2. See if the HD was the problem

Anyway, this is Sony PCV RZ22G
The SATA card is in the 2nd slot below the AGP video.
The selection in the BIOS is set for;
1. Floppy
2. CD
3. SCSI
4. IDE

The SATA card came with the Maxtor drive.
 
#25 ·
If it was a boot device that was the problem, then the computer wouldn't start up at all, Bernouli effect or whatever the hell that is or not. It is not a SCSI setting in the BIOS, this I can tell you for sure. The key indication is that it will find the HDDs on it's own after the fifth or sixth attempt. If it was a wrong setting, it would NEVER find them. This is simple logic.

It definitely sounds like a motherboard problem, as you have ruled out all the other possibilities. Two harddrives aren't going to go bad simultaneously, and they aren't going to temporarily warp platters. HDD platters aren't going to warp on a whim. They are too thick. If they did, the first time they spun up they would crash into the head and more than likely burn out the motor. It would definitely rip the bearings out of them in any case. Besides, the chances of this happening to both drives at once are nil.

So yeah, it probably is the mainboard, although I can not point you to the exact problem.
 
#26 ·
MP3AA said:
This all started when the original 80 gig drive was connected directly to the IDE controller on the MB.
The 250 gig Maxtor I bought was to do 2 things;
1. Replace the small drive
2. See if the HD was the problem

Anyway, this is Sony PCV RZ22G
The SATA card is in the 2nd slot below the AGP video.
The selection in the BIOS is set for;
1. Floppy
2. CD
3. SCSI
4. IDE

The SATA card came with the Maxtor drive.
OK, you're telling us that the 250 GB Maxtor SATA drive is the bootable drive. You have it attached to the SATA controller card (which was made by Promise, and bundled with the Maxtor drive).

Now, remove the WD 80 GB drive from the system; work ONLY with the Maxtor drive for the time being.

Change the BIOS settings to boot from the SCSI device FIRST, and DISABLE all of the other bootable devices, if that is possible. If not, change the boot order to this:

1. SCSI

2. CD

3. Floppy

4. IDE

Boot the system with ONLY the SATA drive attached to the SATA card, and make SURE that booting from the SCSI device is the FIRST choice.

I have to take it on faith that you remembered to press the F6 key and install the SATA drivers when you installed WinXP, and that you haven't actually been booting from the IDE drive.

I have to leave here soon, but please change the settings as I've requested, and boot the system exactly as I've described, then post your results here, and we'll know what to do next.

Good luck, and thanks for your patience. I'm counting on you to get these details right. You MIGHT have a spastic SATA card, or a flaky SATA cable, but let's forget about that for now and get the SATA drive booting.

Sam
 
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